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stallion4



Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 692

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also explain:

Camera person reacts to the site of 2nd plane hitting South Tower (camera dips just after plane enters frame from left side)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bH2t09Ds_J8&mode=related&search=

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Webfairy



Joined: 01 Oct 2006
Posts: 22
Location: Chicago

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:15 am    Post subject: It isn't often a granny gets called sexy. Thanks. Reply with quote

Winky wrote:


Please explain:

People reacting to the site and sound of the 2nd plane before it hits tower:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=-y0wxz0YGF4


What plane? The guy is talking about breaking glass. Other stuff besides planes cause breaking glass.
Then he looks up and the camera wobbles. Everything fades to white, and we see the explosion, an explosion that looks way more like a beam weapon trail than any plane.
The footage has been cheezed together.
There are no markings , leading me to believe it is from Camera Planet, which just happened to have 30 videographers all suited up and ready to go that day for a "reality tv" project.
Yeah.

This is the first I have seen of the entire clip. Lots of these clips get longer over time.

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stallion4



Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 692

PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:20 am    Post subject: Re: It isn't often a granny gets called sexy. Thanks. Reply with quote

Bootsy, you're argument falls apart more with each and every post you make. Please keep posting.
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Webfairy



Joined: 01 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:26 am    Post subject: Footage from the Naudet Snuff Film Reply with quote

spookums4 wrote:
Also explain:

Camera person reacts to the site of 2nd plane hitting South Tower (camera dips just after plane enters frame from left side)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bH2t09Ds_J8&mode=related&search=


Aha! Footage from the Naudet Snuff Film.
http://911foreknowledge.com/n2hit.htm
The Tilt Down Move

So well poised they only had to add a piece of wing to a few frames to give the impression of a plane flying up.

Then there's a cut. Whatever happened next must have been real interesting cos a lot of footage goes dead right then.

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StillDiggin



Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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Location: Michigan

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 2:48 am    Post subject: Deja Vu Reply with quote

I walked away from this forum after everybody ignored the lack of a hole on the "impact side" after the CGI "passed through" it.

Now, they choose to ignore the lack of a hole on the "exit side" as well, in spite of the "nose-out" being present in every possible video they could cram it into.

Instead, they send Stallion4 to run around the track a few times. Save your energy for somewhere else, Heiho1. You'll get nothing useful from here.

What Fintan hasn't told you is that "The Next Level" is circular. Just when you think you might be getting somewhere, you notice you're back where you started.

Which reminds me... I have more important things to do with my time.

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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 850
Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ningen wrote:
Hocus Locus, thank you for this link to stories about escapes. This quote is interesting:
Quote:
I assumed that the flames and smoke shooting down the shafts from the explosion of the plane’s fuel on impact had immediately knocked out all the elevators. I knew that the only method for getting up or down now was the stairs and 80 flights is a long way whether you’re going up or down.

I read in Chapter 9 of the 9/11 Commission report that all the 99 elevators in each tower, except one in each tower, were rendered inoperable by the plane impacts. It is further said that firefighters either could not find or did not want to use the remaining one.

It strikes me as very unlikely that all but one of the 99 elevators in each tower, even ones that did not go to floors that were hit, would be knocked out by the impacts or by fireballs. Firefighters should have at least been able to get to the 40th floor in either tower by elevator, and maybe to the 78th floor in the North Tower and perhaps even the South Tower. Instead they had to climb up from the lobby, at a rate of at least one minute per floor.

If they had reached to impact floors, could they have cleared a path for people to get down from the floors above the fires? Was there an effort to avoid firefighters getting to the floors where the planes supposedly impacted, to prevent them from witnessing what was on those floors and maybe putting out the fires?

Greetings friend Ningen, I sense a real person behind the veil. We can get kind of funny about that around here. Yes those firefighters were loaded down, with about 90lbs (~200kg) equipment, the one floor per minute was an average because every 10 floors they would have to rest, and after 20-30 floors the rest increased. Only working elevators could have placed them where the impact was in the time available; and in SOUTH tower one at least, chief PALMER probably running upstairs to investigate, did almost make it.

As to what does interest me, it is both the 'surd' and the 'absurd' as evidenced here and there. A clue as to why I give the "stuck in the elevator" place as my location, and why PALMER's arrival on 78FLST may have causation to the SOUTH tower collapse, see here.

And I think I have found THREE post-impact working elevators, ONE in SOUTH and TWO in NORTH tower -- the 9/11 report people were not too concered about such things, and it takes some pretty specialized knowledge of the elevator banks to read the firefighter testimonies to extract data from confusion. There may have been other working elevators -- but I find it not surprising that even if therre were, firefighters were loathe to use them: They had no way of knowing how much evil was afoot and where it might strike next. And there is this,

Quote:
[BLAICH] *** 3FLNT, local elevator saw serious evidence of fuel in shaft, burnt people
We started going up the B stairway. As we got to the third floor of the B stairway, we forced open an elevator door which was burnt on all three sides. The only thing that was remaining was the hoistway door. And inside the elevator were about -- I didn't recognize them initially, but a guy from 1 Truck said oh my God, those are people. They were pretty incinerated. And I remember the overpowering smell of kerosene. That's when Lieutenant Foti said oh, that's the jet fuel. I remember it smelled like if you're camping and you drop a kerosene lamp.

There was never a general power interruption until SOUTH tower collapse, and in SOUTH tower all elevators were working until the second plane impacted, after which time only only ONE working elevator is noted, an express (one of cars 01,02,03,04 in ZONE B serving only 1FL and 44FL). It was a 'flying shaft' which means between 1FL and 44FL there were no door portals, only shaft wall. This elevator is noted in the 9/11 report, and the 44 floor head-start gave Chief ORIO PALMER the ability to reach 78FLST Stair A, where he was for the fated take-down. You can go to this post of mine in the 'Tower Collapses' thread to see a theory of mine, as to why SOUTH tower fell first.

In NORTH tower I have found evidence of TWO working elevators not one as stated elsewheres. Many firefighter testimonies claim NO working elevators in NORTH tower, which is understandable due to the comparitive few that made direct use of them.

Quote:
[PICCIOTO] *** Working elevator, one of cars (24,25,26,27,28,29 in ZONE H, serving 9FL-16FL NORTH)
So that's where we ended up going. We took the low-rise bank of elevators up to the 16th floor. It was a flying shaft from 1 to 8, so we stopped at 9 just to make sure it worked. Thank God it did. We went up to the 16th floor. We got off. People were coming down the stairs, then we went to the stairs. I believe it was the C stairwell. It was the one closest to the West Street side. So we went up to the 21st floor and that was locked. So then we went up to the 22nd, which was open. So we threw all our gear down, you know, left our extra cylinders, because conditions were clear. So we left the search ropes, we left everything up there.

This is ONE 'working elevator' in NORTH tower that is generally described.

Quote:
[MURPHY] *** Working elevator, one of cars (30,31,32,33,34,35 in ZONE G, serving 17FL-24FL NORTH)
...his name was Captain Hynes, said that a couple of his guys found an elevator that was still working. He said we are going to check this elevator. All four companies headed out of the Marriott and what I found out, it took a day later to piece together, we headed to the north tower, not the south tower. That changed -- that's one of the reasons I am still here. But also at this point we think we are still heading to the 44th floor of the south tower. He also said at the time, he said we found an elevator, it works. It will only get us to 24 and we will have to walk the other 20 flights, but at least it will get us halfway there. I remember thinking - a lot of guys, a couple of my senior guys saying elevators, you know, we didn't know what was going on in the building, but elevators sounded kind of, let's see, we know this sounds like - it just sounded kind of scary. We came through the Marriott. We left the Marriott and it was determined now we would have walked out of the Marriott all internally though. I don't know whether it was on the concourse level or the street level exactly, but we came through what was a revolving door and it brings you into the north tower.

And this is ANOTHER. You are reading here the testimony of a person who was confused at the time -- not knowing the layout, he was assigned to SOUTH tower and hasty readers probably assumed that is where he ended up -- but he would not have survived then, this fortunate encounter took him to NORTH instead. And the specific reference to 24FL means it was a different zone-local elevator car than the one the 9/11 report (and elsewhere described), for such a car could not take one to 16FL, it was a 'flying shaft'.. Testimony of WALL confirms this too. This elevator worked until the moment NORTH tower electric power ceased, which was the moment of SOUTH tower collapse.

WALL's testimony is even more soul-rending, for the way he tells it LOUIE CACCHIOLI may owe his very life to a moment of brilliant insight "Whoa, I have no wall breaking tools and this guy has tools and I'm about to be alone in this spooky elevator." He says it simply and well,

Quote:
[WALL] *** Working elevator, one of cars (30,31,32,33,34,35 in ZONE G, serving 17FL-24FL NORTH)
We get into the lobby of the north tower and the first elevator bank, there was one elevator out of the six that still had the lights on, but they couldn't get it to work. Meanwhile, all the other elevators were blown off their doors. So we tried the next elevator bank of six and they finally got one that worked to the 24th floor. I think it was captain of 21 he went up to check. He went up and he came back down. He went up with his guys and someone from the truck took the elevator. And then the other engine went up in the next load, 22, and on the load after that, the truck was going up. They wanted one of our guys to run the elevators since there was only one truck, so I gave the control radio to Fireman Louie Cacchioli. It seemed like just as soon as the doors closed, the panel went out. But he had actually gotten to the top floor and the rest of the truck got off. And the last guy getting off was the irons guy, and Louie grabbed him back and says you got to stay with me because I need the tools. And as soon as the doors closed, the power went out and they were stuck in the elevator. It hadn't moved yet. It was still on the 24th floor. They were able to force their way out pretty easy. They just popped the doors open because the elevator didn't move yet.

A very close call indeed. Freaks you out. This is even more obvious, there is no confusion and he clearly states 24FL not 16FL as the destination. I do not doubt this man or the other, we have here a SECOND working elevator, and some hasty reading is revealed (by human error not dark designs, likely). The elevators that served ALL floors were devestated horribly, leaving only zone-locals (NORTH) and one 1FL-44FL express (SOUTH), probably because SOUTH tower impact was at the corner and the express shaft towards the opposite one.

The NIST report says fuel entered elevator shafts, and they spent so much effort modelling the plane that it is almost sick in the mind when you consider they did not model in detail the actual path and characteristics of the fuel, which affected many more souls then the unfortunates at impact levels who could never have survived, modelling that would give the greatest benefit to people around the world to make this awful scenario more survivable for the greatest number.

YOU SEE, there is so much here I find far more interesting than debates about the nature of the things that hit the towers. I think they were 757 planes, others may think they were other things. Even if it was a BRAVE LITTLE TOASTER (and evil Friend Toaster) that impacted the towers... by available evidence those toasters must have been plane-shaped and full of jet fuel (kerosene). People who hold on to the original 'cgi-only planes' theories cannot explain (with due respect to those who think planes but not the ones claimed, which I do not address) the immediate lateral motion felt on the upper floors described by many people which is consistent with a high velocity object impacting the building. They use explosives to explain the visible fireball (which is easy) but do not try to explain the motion (which is impossible).

To say precisely why I think it impossible is only fair, Even if you had lots of explosives to make the towers 'sway' in this manner -- the paramount issue is, where and how would you push them? It is like the silly movies that talk about diverting an approaching asteroid to Earth by just blowing it to smithereens. The sad fact is you'd just wind up with umpteen simthereens approaching Earth, the biggest pieces perhaps more than enough to do the job. And as a result of the effort, many troubles elsewhere on Earth besides. Without explosives or planes we cannot push things full of people, suddenly. With explosives we cannot push heavy things full of people without damaging them greatly and creating great visual havoc which was not observed -- only plane impact evidence was observed. So even if I had seen not a single video of a plane I would still be certain at this point that there were planes. Or Brave Little Toasters shaped like them.

Of course I too have considered 'no plane' theories -- because they are fantastic and fascinating. I have moved on. And there's the trap that has been set for us all, they are so fascinating that many are spending precious time and attention on such things, to the exclusions of the post-9/11 (and pre) political objectives and persons achieving them, and (my focus here) tower collapse issues. Probably most (if not all) that frequent this forum think this diversion is intentional because it takes people away from things more relevant to our objectives. I do not mean to say that any poster here is intentionally misleading others if that can be as easily (and more politely) explained as conviction and passion. If *I* was convinced of such things no one could sway me either, until I had convinced myself otherwise.

And then Ningen, to my delight, wrote:
The fireballs were very odd -- in the North Tower, one shot down to the 22nd floor and apparently took out the security command center located on that floor and trapped people on that floor. As a result of this, it seems that the software to open doors to the roof in both buildings was knocked out.

All of this makes me wonder if there was not sabotage, and perhaps some kind of miltary operation occurring in the buildings.

Trolls, this is worth answering even under the planes/demolition theory. Even assuming the planes were real, maybe the fires were not so bad and could have been put out if firefighters got up there, which would have taken much less time if the elevators were working. Firefighters and policeman might also have learned that the impact damage from the planes was not so bad, particularly to the core columns. This would have undercut what became NIST's explanation for the "global collapses."

I remember when trolls were made of stone, lived under bridges and collected treasures as toll for passage.

You have hit pay dirt my friend. My current working theory is that elevator doors specifically on the 22FL NORTH tower were blown by charges at or around the moment of plane impact above, to create an easy path of low resistence for the fuel fireball to take out the building's critical door control and fire supression systems. As empirically evidenced by the very-significant 'coincidence' that the 22FL seems to have had apparently-some elevator doors blown where adjacent floors above and below did not. A coincidence (for the moment) too fantastic to believe, except as not one, really. This plan was not as successful as it could have been, due to an inner enclosure and security vestibule (a lady in 22FL said over the radio she could see "fire outside" on the video monitor), but the fire went out quickly and all that were in that room escaped.

The significance of specific elevator-door damage to this floor, and the circumstances it implies, must not be ignored, as the prospect of demolition cannot be ignored and must be explored keenly with the specific motive you have described. Also pay attention to sprinkler systems, which worked and which did not; in there we may find more evidence of pre-positioned explosives for non structural purposes.. Another one of the many scenarios that NIST ignored. Trolls are not known to repair the bridges they inhabit either, they are merely opportunists.

Do join the worthy endevor, we need all the mental magicians we can get.

___
"An individual force-shield?" Riose glared. "You speak extravagance. What generator could be powerful enough to condense a shield to the size of a single man? By the Great Galaxy, did he carry five thousand myria-tons of nuclear power-source about with him on a little wheeled gocart?"

Barr said quietly, "This is the magician of whom you hear whispers, stories and myths. The name 'magician' is not lightly earned. He carried no generator large enough to be seen, but not the heaviest weapon you can carry in your hand would have as much as creased the shield he bore."


~Issac Asimov, "Foundation and Empire, Search for Magicians"
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StillDiggin



Joined: 21 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 9:58 am    Post subject: Ah yes, the swaying... Reply with quote

I forgot to mention the earlier post in which the alleged sway was embellished. 10 feet, I believe somebody said. Not even NIST is capable of making that ridiculous of a claim.

According to them, the amplitude of the sway was 12in. +/- 1in. at the 70th floor and 22in. +/- 5in. at roof level (source:http://wtc.nist.gov/WTC_Conf_Sep13-15/session3/3Butler.pdf).

Apparently, they quantified this using the infamous "fixed camera of a psychic." Yes, why indeed would this camera be set up where it is (see page 2 of this report)? Could this be the luckiest videographer in the world? Or did he *somehow* know that this otherwise pathetic camera angle would yield valuable information after-the-fact?

Please tell me they didn't use that particular frame to measure sway. If so, they are using the nosecone of a "plane" as the source of the force. All by itself, that premise is laughable.

I'll tell you what - anyone who has the time can go through this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWhJsY4cf_A) frame-by-frame and line each frame up using the foreground building as a reference. They can then draw a vertical line starting at either visible rooftop corner before the "impact." Then they come back in here and tell us all how much they think it "swayed." I'd do it myself, but for the following reason:

After a lengthy debate with myself about whether to include the "swaywitnesses" amongst the "eyewitnesses" as liars, I came to the conclusion that once it was proven that these were CGI images rather than planes, "swaywitness" accounts would be rendered irrelevant anyway.

Apparently, Hocus didn't "get" my memo. For some reason, we are supposed to believe that while it is possible for dozens of witnesses to lie about seeing planes, it isn't possible that a handful would lie about feeling sway.

I'm looking for the classic "double-duty witness:" someone they paid to say they both saw the plane AND felt the sway. Only then will I begin to consider including these "swaysayers" into my upcoming Eyewitness Report Card articles.

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Hocus Locus



Joined: 22 Sep 2006
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Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out

PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Ah yes, the swaying... Reply with quote

StillDiggin wrote:
I forgot to mention the earlier post in which the alleged sway was embellished. 10 feet, I believe somebody said. Not even NIST is capable of making that ridiculous of a claim.

According to them, the amplitude of the sway was 12in. +/- 1in. at the 70th floor and 22in. +/- 5in. at roof level (source:http://wtc.nist.gov/WTC_Conf_Sep13-15/session3/3Butler.pdf).

As Popeye says, "Well blow me down!"

Yeah, the Commission for ya. The man with one watch always knows what time it is; the man with two watches is never sure. Someone who refers to elevator cables as "ropes" is either not generally informed or is trying to downplay cable strength to a dim audience ("Arrr!" Popeye says, "Someone's been friggin' with the riggin'!") Also worth noting: 'gravity brakes' on elevator cars did NOT generally fail, aside from car 50 NT they seem to have saved some lives. But in the particular context of whether the buildings swayed or not, I care not what time it is. Sun's up over that-a-way.

Quote:
[ALAN REISS Commission hearing 18-May-2004]
MR. REISS: As the Commission knows, the building code task force here in New York City has recommended the hardening of all the elevator shaft ways and all the fire stairwells. I don't know that you can fully protect against a major bomb or, God forbid, if the new Airbus A380 ever attacks a building. What we followed was the protocol from the Fire Department of the City of New York that day. The floor wardens were told that if the stairways servicing the fire floor were compromised or they were unusable due to fire or smoke, they could use the elevators in accordance with very strict procedures. If they didn't service the fire floor, they could use those elevators. But we know that the elevators were also compromised and all knocked out. This was such an incredible event. We believe, but we don't know, that a lot of the elevators were knocked out because the building moved in excess of ten feet and we think that caused most of the safeties on the elevators to drop underneath, the safety devices that are meant in case an elevator rope breaks or something, that these shoes drop and lock all the elevators in place. So the elevators were not able to be used.

  • it was me, the boss and Artie, and the south tower came down and our building rocked. I remember windows
  • swayed back and forth. Flames, smoke, and debris from the ceiling
  • our building once again swayed back and forth as the as result of
  • swayed for a few seconds, as we were simply frozen waiting to
  • The building swayed about two feet, then righted itself
  • rocked, I opened the door which I was somewhat not to keen on doing.
  • ..".they heard the boom. The building swayed so severely
  • he says. "The whole building just rocked." An official with the
  • MALE A: But it just rocked. The whole building right now (Overlap)
  • MALE A: Yeah, I'm here. This whole building just rocked.
  • just rocked. I mean, really shaking like it was an earthquake. MALE B: That's bad.
  • FEMALE: What the hell is going down there. MALE A: I just got rocked, badly.
  • MALE A: I just ... I just got rocked. So ...
  • MALE A: It sure is. I'll tell you what. I'm not very comfortable right now. I just got rocked, when that
  • MALE A: I just got rocked. When the second one hit, I got rocked. Because I, that whole ... it shook me.
  • The building swayed about two feet, then righted itself. (The building
  • that other wing rocked slightly toward the ground... an American Airlines
  • plane? gently rocked and slowly [She claims because of the adrenaline and
  • building rocked, I guess like a building must shake in an earthquake -
  • rocked, I guess like a building must shake in an earthquake - although
  • in front of me-- that other wing rocked slightly toward the ground...
  • an American Airlines plane-- gently rocked and slowly [She claims
  • entire building swayed back and forth. Flames, smoke, and debris from
  • according to six people who spoke with them. "The building rocked like
  • shuddered, swayed and convulsed for more than four minutes after the
  • told me that a plane had hit the building, that the buildng had rocked
  • happened, but the building swayed so far that they knew something
  • was terrified the whole day. My sense was that our building swayed a
  • them. "The building rocked like it never has before," said Mr. Schneider, who was there for the 1993
  • rocked like it never has before," said Mr. Schneider, who was there for
  • then boom. The building swayed heavily to the South the first time, and then a couple other times with
  • reported: "We felt the impact. The building swayed about seven times. Debris was falling down on the
  • the collision, the top of the tower swayed 27 in. to the north, taking 2.6 s to reach the maximum
  • The tower swayed more than one foot back and forth in each direction on the impact floors, about one-third
  • The elevator was ascending when, suddenly, I felt it rocked by an explosion, and then felt it plummeting.
  • the time were thrown around as the building swayed by the impact. Rich was hit by the marble walls, which
  • time were thrown around as the building swayed from the impact. Rich was hit by the marble from the walls,

39 cites I culled down from 56 ("swayed by Al-Qaeda to join..." "explosion rocked the car" etc), mostly witness/surviver testimonies published later. Various sources, testimony and radio transcript. I culled hasily, probably still some herrings in there.

After all, five minutes was all I budgeted to noting 'sway' for this post and it's been ten already but I respect your acknowledgement. But I personally didn't need any of them to be sure. A friend who worked in 43FLST and decided to "get the hell out" headed for the stairs as soon as NT was hit; her building swayed noticibly when she was in 20s. She made it out with ten blocks to spare.

I'll check out the video clip when I can, because such things are generally useful though I am curious how xxx hundred pixels' worth of resolution (with aliasing and CCD delay) could convince anyone of anything. Oh that's right -- you're 'no sway' you say. The absence of sway in a tiny video is what I'm supposed to be looking for? Gimmie a break. Let's spend our time diggin' up what is there to see, not waste time trying to convince others they can't see what they've already heard.

Quote:
I'm looking for the classic "double-duty witness:" someone they paid to say they both saw the plane AND felt the sway. Only then will I begin to consider including these "swaysayers" into my upcoming Eyewitness Report Card articles.


EDIT: Best I can do is

Quote:
John McLaughlin, 91st floor of WTC 1 (SOUTH...He says, "it was then that I heard the roar of jet engines coming right at us. I have a vague recollection of a shadow crossing the blinds. And then one or two seconds after the roar came the impact. The whole building shook, moved, and oscillated. The interior wall and the ceiling at the east end of the office came in.

One witness beware, but you only asked for one... doesn't fit the bill entirely but a 'shadow across the window blinds' is not a CGI grade event... if he was a paid witness someone did not get their money's worth... and the plane did plow partly through the floor.

'swaysayers' Hmmph but I like it. Much more clever than 'swaygate'. So you're some sort of nayswayer then? We must stop this lexical madness while we still can. It's been twenty minutes now, I never was very good at judging time. ;-)

p.s. anything else in my post strike you as...interesting?

___
"A witty saying proves nothing."
~Voltaire
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StillDiggin



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only other thing I noted as "interesting" was your assumption of the presence of kerosene as the basis for one of your elevator conclusions.

If I were to ask you to prove that kerosene was present, where would you obtain your proof? A falsified forensics report, maybe - or did they even bother to create one of those?

After all, as I've pointed out at my blog, it's much easier to provide "proof" of existence than non-existence.

Back to the word "sway" for a second, it's a funny term, isn't it? Does a Rock band "sway?" When you get "rocked," are you by definition made to move in one direction, then back from whence you came?

If someone claims the tower "shook," doesn't that imply a short amplitude of vibration?

My point is, when you remove all of these "interpretations" of what people said they felt, you'll probably get down to the handful of "swaysayers" that I'm referring to.

I'm entirely sure that from the 43rd floor - and especially the 20th floor, any "significant sway" would have resulted in the top of the tower toppling over. Clearly, anyone claiming sway from that far down is misusing the word. Getting "rocked" by a nearby explosion is another matter entirely.

They proper way to go about this would be to indentify the resolute "swaysayers" and to write their names down. Then perform your own evaluation of sway from the aforementioned video. If you don't see sway, they're either lying or mistaken.

What does the determination of whether the building swayed or didn't sway really end up proving? Why couldn't an internal directed explosion also cause sway?

And how is any of this "sway" nonsense more concrete (pun intended), than my irrefutable proof of CGI's; which incidentally, nobody in here seems willing to refute with anything more than the usual "witnesses."

I jumped over both WTC towers on September 10, 2001. If you don't believe me, give me 20 random people and about $500,000 - and I'll provide 20 "witnesses" who will say that I cleared them by 250ft (all I need is an extra nickel to give Stallion4 to quote them all the time).

Nobody saw me NOT doing it - so my eyewitnesses are all I'll need, right?

Or do I need to provide some CGI insertions as well?

Stop already with the "eyewitness," "swaywitness," and elevator crap. This discussion was supposed to be about the "nose-out" with no missing steel beams to account for it.

As impossible as my jumping over the towers is, this is even MORE impossible. It's so impossible, there isn't even a word for it, for crying out loud! I had to coin the term "OSNOSIS" just to be able to TRY to explain how it could have happened.

If you really want to debate anything, start with that - and don't debate anything else until you have a viable alternative to my conclusion.

Sometimes a researcher has to start all over again after realizing his/her assumptions are proven to be wrong. To ignore this proof and simply continue venturing off in the wrong direction is... well.... ignorant. Especially when that "direction" is a circle.

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heiho1



Joined: 10 Feb 2006
Posts: 133

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heh, all of this text and not once was the simple question answered.

There are three possibilities being expressed regarding the whatzit exiting the building:

1) A columnular jet of debris is being mistaken as the "fuselage" exiting the building. How and why such debris would be columnularly ejected would help make that seem more plausible to me.

2) Something solid emerged, in which case, again, why is the exterior steel facade intact? Why is there no hole where the huge exiting object appears to be? It can't possibly be an hollow aluminum tube punching out like that so what is it?

3) Video fakery took place, neatly explaining the impossibility of the "fuselage" exiting the building intact yet leaving no hole in the exiting facade.

Now, there is a lot of posting about elevators not working and other matters not related to the question being raised. If you don't care about the theory and don't support it and don't wish to discuss it, DON'T POST TO THIS THREAD! I posted to *this* thread out of respect for the intent of the *other* threads. I don't post randomly to random threads and it's disrespectful to do so. Leave the discussion for those wishing to rationally debate. Why are people who allegedly do not care about the outcome of this thread expending so much effort to derail the discussion? Why immense, lengthy posts about unrelated matters?

No good motivation that I can think of...

Also, keep in mind that Fintan himself has posted regarding his belief that one or more of the commonly known photos of the South tower falling was faked:

http://www.breakfornews.com/articles/PhotoFakingTheWTCFall.htm

As far as I know, the above analysis has not been retracted. If true, the above indicates that image fakery has taken place. I see no reason why video fakery might not also accompany image fakery. Again, I view it as equally possible that poorly faked videos might have been used for psywar purposes with an assumption that they would be sniffed out.
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Ningen



Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:20 pm    Post subject: I thought elevators were relevant Reply with quote

I was wondering about the elevators because I thought it might indirectly support the theory that Boeing jets did not hit the WTC towers. It was speculation, to be sure, but I wondered if the elevators were not sabotaged to prevent firefighters from learning that Boeings had not hit the towers. I was not trying to hijack the thread -- this is all I had to offer.

I've written elsewhere that the engineers' explanation of the knife-into-butter planes does not make sense. I think this also supports video fakery.

http://ningens-blog.blogspot.com/2006/11/911-pound-gorilla-in-catos-room.html

Hocus Locus, thank you for the kind words. Yes, I'm a real person sincerely trying to solve this crime, and I've decided there is no point in assuming any different of anyone else.
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stallion4



Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 692

PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's already been proven that planes hit the towers. Stop being dishonest and pretending it hasn't been proven.
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