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New Audio: Ken Humphries on the 'Jesus Jihad'
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Continuity



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oooh, go on then, Aniam - please give us a name for your beliefs/system/philosophy. The suspense is killing us!
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Useful Eater



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aniam, I suggest you read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.
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Aniam



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Continuity wrote:
Oooh, go on then, Aniam - please give us a name for your beliefs/system/philosophy. The suspense is killing us!


Truth doesn't need a title, it simply is. The drawbacks of categorization are addressed in Fintan's latest Treeincarnation audio. Not only that, the English word categorize comes from the Greek word kategoreo and is translated to the word "accuse" in the Bible.

Useful Eater wrote:
Aniam, I suggest you read The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.


I Googled it and read some of what Wikipedia had to say about him and the book, and I have to ask, why do you suggest it?
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Nat



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

please forgive my poor analogy (and delay)

your phrasing was a trap i fell into, it appeared that you were coming from a christianic belief point of view, and i apologise for the assumption

you said...
Quote:
...and everyone is being given over to reap the fruits of their character, whether for eternal life or eternal death

...this sounds like a very conventional religious viewpoint, indeed, according to how i see things, everyone is always and perpetually reaping those sorts of fruits, or those fruits grown by the hands of others...so up to a point i see the logic in what you're saying...but then you take a sharp turn into a religious standpoint i just won't even attempt to engage with in religious terminology (not my bag to be honest) beyond saying that talking of eternal life or death as some output caused by the persons input sounds a lot like religious dogma...to follow this by rejecting religion of any name seems like more double speak (okay, maybe not true dictionary definition of double speak, but still placing truth in its own denial)

sin is not a word i would have preferably chosen to be honest, so any craptitude in my reply i blame on that fact...'sin' seemed to be the most apt word in response to
Quote:
...reaping fruits of character...

sin is a widely understood word which could describe the actions of any self aware creature anywhere in the universe, there must be billions of worlds with self aware creatures inhabiting them, i doubt it is soley a human condition, sin is just a word for our experience of it...i think i prefer the words 'harm' and 'disharmony'
Quote:
Ok. So within the context of your analogy: what is the tree that humans cut down to produce the door that they call sin? That is, if sin is merely a human invention

the tree cut down to produce the door called sin (i would say the door is religious judgement of action), is self-determination and self judgement, 'cut down' self determination - the choice of the self without external judgement, and you create the door to sin, hmm, perhaps not quite so bad an analogy, but i'm sure you'll find many flaws in my reasoning, enlighten me if you will please
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Continuity



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aniam wrote:
Continuity wrote:
Oooh, go on then, Aniam - please give us a name for your beliefs/system/philosophy. The suspense is killing us!


Truth doesn't need a title, it simply is. The drawbacks of categorization are addressed in Fintan's latest Treeincarnation audio. Not only that, the English word categorize comes from the Greek word kategoreo and is translated to the word "accuse" in the Bible.

Ha! You're a Scientologist, aren't you? ! I knew it! Wink

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Aniam



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

matt wrote:
please forgive my poor analogy (and delay)

your phrasing was a trap i fell into, it appeared that you were coming from a christianic belief point of view, and i apologise for the assumption


No need to apologize. I do come from a Biblical point of view, but whether or not one wants to call it christianic is determined by one's definition of a Christian.

matt wrote:
you said...
Quote:
...and everyone is being given over to reap the fruits of their character, whether for eternal life or eternal death

...this sounds like a very conventional religious viewpoint, indeed, according to how i see things, everyone is always and perpetually reaping those sorts of fruits, or those fruits grown by the hands of others...so up to a point i see the logic in what you're saying...but then you take a sharp turn into a religious standpoint i just won't even attempt to engage with in religious terminology (not my bag to be honest) beyond saying that talking of eternal life or death as some output caused by the persons input sounds a lot like religious dogma...to follow this by rejecting religion of any name seems like more double speak (okay, maybe not true dictionary definition of double speak, but still placing truth in its own denial)


Fair enough. I have no burden to force anyone to engage in anything that is not on their heart.

matt wrote:
sin is a widely understood word which could describe the actions of any self aware creature anywhere in the universe, there must be billions of worlds with self aware creatures inhabiting them, i doubt it is soley a human condition, sin is just a word for our experience of it...i think i prefer the words 'harm' and 'disharmony'


I too would use the word disharmony. For the sake of conversation however, I would say that the human creature of this planet is the only one that fell into the trap of self awareness, therefore the earth has been quarantined from the rest of the "normal" universe. The other worlds are looking on to see what the final analysis is going to be as a result of it. The whole purpose of the true religion was to bring to man the knowledge of the plan of escape (that was put into operation at the beginning of the crisis) so that those who were willing to relinquish their "self" could identify with the new cause that has been made available in their life, and receive its effects instead of reaping the effects of selfishness.

Quote:
the tree cut down to produce the door called sin (i would say the door is religious judgement of action), is self-determination and self judgement, 'cut down' self determination - the choice of the self without external judgement, and you create the door to sin, hmm, perhaps not quite so bad an analogy, but i'm sure you'll find many flaws in my reasoning, enlighten me if you will please


I don't see anything wrong with your reasoning. Selfishness leads a soul to judgment (religious, or other) because it is only by judging others that the self can defend itself.


Continuity wrote:
Ha! You're a Scientologist, aren't you? ! I knew it!


No. I have never read a book of L. Ron Hubbard, and have never been to a Scientology meeting. I never experienced a reciprocal unction (the proverbial "ding" in my heart) in response to any of their material or messages that I have seen. The notion that humanity's problems are the fault of alien infiltration (if that's what they're really into) is a denial of the law of cause and effect. If that's what they are into, it only shows how desparate the human ego and imagination are in attempt to escape the fact that the conditions of the world are exactly how man has made them.
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Rosalinda



Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:32 pm    Post subject: The Hitler-Haunted House on C Street Reply with quote

The Hitler-Haunted House on C Street

The existence of a covert Hitlerite organization (called
simply "The Fellowship," or "The Family") wielding considerable
power through the 1980s' Conservative Revolution, was brought
before the public in the March 2003 issue of {Harper's} magazine
(article entitled "Jesus Plus Nothing").

Reporter Jeffrey Sharlet infiltrated The Fellowship. He
quoted the leader, Vereide's successor Douglas Coe, and the
group's private memos: "Coe listed other men who had changed the
world through the strength of the covenants they had forged with
their brothers: Look at Hitler, he said. Lenin, Ho Chi Minh, Bin
Laden.... A document called Thoughts on a Core Group explains
that Communists use cells as their basic structure. The mafia
operates like this, and the basic unit of the Marine Corps is the
four man squad. Hitler, Lenin, and many others understood the
power of a small core of people.... [Coe called for] 'total
unity. Two, or three, become one.... It's called a covenant. Two,
or three, agree? They can do anything. A covenant is ...
powerful. Can you think of anyone who made a covenant with his
friends?|... Hitler. Yes,' Doug said. 'Yes, Hitler made a
covenant. The Mafia makes a covenant. It is such a very powerful
thing. Two, or three, agree.'"

The repeated message, that barbaric and evil power becomes
good when Jesus controls it, was delivered to the residents, a
captive audience of the cult, "at the Family's four-story, red
brick Washington town house, ... at 133 C Street S.E.," just
around the corner from the Congressional office buildings. At the
time of the {Harper's} article, "Eight congressmen, including
Senator Ensign and seven representatives lived there...."

In 1985, Congressman Tom DeLay (R-Tex.), then in his first
term, was a terrible drunk, his life crashing. The
Fellowship/Prayer Breakfast organization took him under its
protection and brainwashing regime, as it did with key personnel
in the military and elsewhere, a network of far-right intrigue
throughout government.

But in the 1980s, the Fellowship was unknown to the public.
What then was the official name of the organization running this
nightmare on C Street? It was Youth With A Mission.
{EIR'}s interviews with former YWAM staff members have
allowed us a glimpse at the internal operation of the group. The
133 C Street house, the Washington headquarters for Youth With A
Mission, was headed by Ron Boehme (pronounced "Baymie"). The
program in the 1980s was precisely that described in the 2003
{Harper's} article, capturing control of Congress and government,
using Buchman's pagan-oracle "talks with God," etc.

As it happens, this same Ron Boehme, now a YWAM leader in
Washington State, is as of the time of this writing, a candidate
for state legislature (26th District, Kitsap County) in the
Republican primary to be held Sept. 19.

Interviewed by a local publication, candidate Boehme,
boasting of his former importance, spoke somewhat openly about
the arrangements over the past quarter century at 133 C Street S.E., Washington.

Speaking of himself in the third person, he said "Ron joined
Youth With A Mission--one of the world's largest youth/service
organizations. YWAM has 11,000 full-time staff and 25,000
short-term workers that serve in 140 nations around the world....
Ron has founded Youth With A Mission centers in Washington D.C.,
Virginia, and the state of Washington.... He served in
Washington, D.C. during the Reagan Revolution, and started a
center on Capitol Hill in 1980 that continues to this day and
houses 2% of the U.S. Congress (its first resident being
Congressman Steve Largent)."[4]

Behind the ABC 9/11 Docudrama


THE AXIS OF YWAM


by Anton Chaitkin

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Continuity



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Speaking of himself in the third person, he said "Ron joined
Youth With A Mission[....]

I always take it as a *bad* sign when people start talking about themselves in the third person....

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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I could add a few points and counterpoints.

YES, when State and Religion mix and one gets power from the other, that's a big problem. (Rothbard said they wanted to not only separate Church from State, but EVERYTHING from State.)

Religion has a tendency, via faith in things unseen, to accept ANYTHING promoted by more powerful egos. The search for Absolute Truth in a world full of gray areas and artificial definitions, grays both expanded by words and limited by words.

I think DOGMA is deadly, but then, everyone wants to have some kind of baseline for things, ideas, etc. I guess the DOGMA should be kept as simple as possible, not a complex web, and that assumptions should be checked frequently and rigorously.

On the other hand:
Christians complain about the religion of Global Warming and pseudo-ecology.

Anarcho-Libertarians like Chomsky and Rothbard wrote about the rise of Technocrats and cult of "science" which allowed them to use Vietnam like a giant Skinner box, where they would move populations around experimentally with various forces, looking to see the result.

Robert McNamara. Science and efficiency, no morality. That was the argument.

Same for the rise of Social Science and Pschology (Century of Self video) in America and Britain, elsewhere.

Of course, this argument was mostly about social science and political science. Chomsky made the point well that some fields of science, like engineering, involve a degree of precision and rigor, while in biology at the time of his writing so little is understood beyond tiny cell functions, not the whole, and social science basically consisting of opinions flowing in and out of fad.

Likewise, Maxism was (i think rightly) criticized for an over-reliance on theory and 'science'. Same for Keynesianism. (Do I sound Libertarian enough? I'm just conveying. I'm not necessarily committed to this, completely, but parts are compelling.)

We've talked about the "science" of AIDS here.

Is there no science/religion which is not politicized? Probably not.

I think there are a lot of mysterious processes and unknowables. I think there's some grounds for inner faith. Faith is one form of ego-strengthening, having faith in oneself.
WHY on earth should one have faith in oneself? Where's the proof?

At some point in questioning, especially excess and impatient questioning about ambiguous matters, everything tends to collapse in on itself. I think faith itself is real, and works for some.

Religion is one type of symbolic method of understanding and relating to the world and to self and to friends and strangers. Lots of good lessons there. Like any other language or computer program or other tool, it can be useful, it is limiting in some says, and it can be corrupted. One should not lean too hard on any one model or symbol set. It causes rigor ideasis.

I myself developed some framework out of parts of Taoism and Christianity, but not to say I'm deep into either. Just smorgasbord.

Emmet Fox's "scientific Christianity" was useful to me, and slightly Asian. It talked about prayer and certain prayers as TOOLS for self-development, affirming certain things one might want to affirm. At the time, I recognized that it was imaginary, at least to me. However there's nothing wrong with developing imaginary relationships if they prove to be helpful, no more than it's wrong to create songs or other things out of imagination.

I'd say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


From what I've read before, Bush's relation with Christianity is DUBIOUS at best, no matter what people close to him say. The latest vid's on You Tube show him and Rove and the Republicans USING these people as pawns. Cheap to feed, they only need rhetoric. Cynical fuck!

Not only are they deluded. They are being Betrayed and used, hijacked for politics. Religion creates a layer of gullibility, which the Rethugs have learned to capture.
The book is called Tempting Faith.
Of course they are being betrayed from within as well, if one believes Barbara Aho's investigation of the whole Calvinist, Puritan, cult and their connection with the Hitler cult and former Nazis still in power and the right wing of the CNP that was put together by a former chewing gum salesman.

When people operate inside infantile and dogmatic belief systems, they should NOT be given the reins of power over others. Neither should purely scientific people (also dogmatists) like Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Ledeen, Cheney, and Perle. etc.
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Aniam



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dilbert_g wrote:
I think DOGMA is deadly, but then, everyone wants to have some kind of baseline for things, ideas, etc. I guess the DOGMA should be kept as simple as possible, not a complex web, and that assumptions should be checked frequently and rigorously.


Personally, I never heard the word dogma used in any religious circles I participated in. I didn't even begin to consider the word until 1998 when I was working with a guy whose car had a bumper sticker that said, "my karma ran over your dogma." After seeing the word used in this thread, I looked it up at onelook.com and one of the definitions is: a religious doctrine that is proclaimed as true without proof.

Upon reading that it occured to me that it is impossible to prove anything to anyone because proving is a process that takes place inside the observer. All one can do is present evidence and bear witness to the subject matter at hand. The observer then must make a judgment as to whether the subject is proved or not.

dilbert_g wrote:
I think there are a lot of mysterious processes and unknowables. I think there's some grounds for inner faith. Faith is one form of ego-strengthening, having faith in oneself.
WHY on earth should one have faith in oneself? Where's the proof?


I don't know about anyone else, but the last thing I need is a stronger ego. That has been my problem all my life. I haven't needed much convincing to prove to me that I have a self, it became evident quite naturally.

dilbert_g wrote:
Same for the rise of Science and Pschology (Century of Self video) in America and Britain, elsewhere.


Century of the Self is an excellent video. I would recommend it to everyone. It can be watched at Information Clearinghouse.info (I know its on the CIA fake sites list).

dilbert_g wrote:
I'd say, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Me too.

dilbert_g wrote:
From what I've read before, Bush's relation with Christianity is DUBIOUS at best, no matter what people close to him say. The latest vid's on You Tube show him and Rove and the Republicans USING these people as pawns...

Not only are they deluded. They are being Betrayed and used, hijacked for politics. Religion creates a layer of gullibility, which the Rethugs have learned to capture.
The book is called Tempting Faith.


I haven't read the book yet, but would like to. The whole situation sounds like a fulfillment of Revelation 17 where the ten horns of the beast (the powers of the state) eat the flesh of the whore (apostate christianity), and burn her with fire.

dilbert_g wrote:
When people operate inside infantile and dogmatic belief systems, they should NOT be given the reins of power over others. Neither should purely scientific people (also dogmatists) like Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Ledeen, Cheney, and Perle. etc.


I agree.
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puffdaddy



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Posts: 506
Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Until relatively recently, the flock were not permitted access to written materials concerning their own religion.
After all, the con-artists would not like the sheep to actually start studying their religion, or, God forbid, actually
questioning the priesthood. The whole point of being a priest is that you control the knowledge, and only dole it
out in small handfuls according to your perception of how the sheep will react to this knowledge. The last thing
you want is for the sheep to question you, or start thinking for themselves.
Why?
Because the veils which the priests draw across the inner sanctum are exceedingly thin. Too close an inspection
might reveal that the altar is bare.2
The priests used to be able to rely on the total ignorance and stupidity of the masses. Nowadays they
have to rely solely on the latter. Remember that most people were totally illiterate and were incapable of reading
the Bible. It is only recently that Catholics (for example) were permitted to read the Bible. Services were, and
still are in many places, conducted in Latin - a language completely unknown to the common people.
Historically, the church has ruthlessly, repeatedly and deliberately lied to the mass of believers.
They have done this either to blatantly gain advantage for themselves (money, power etc.) or worse, in
the belief that these lies were in the best interests of the flock who were considered too vulgar and ignorant to be
provided with more accurate information. They considered it best to keep the masses in ignorance.
Organized religion revels in misinformation, illogical thought and downright lies. The vast majority of
sheep have absolutely no interest in any aspect of their own religion. They rarely ask questions or enter into
debate. Their knowledge of the facts concerning their own religion is virtually nil. In fact they know less about
this subject than almost any other subject with which they have had a passing acquaintance. Of course, the
reason they do not know is because they do not want to know. They realize, on some level, that their beliefs will
not withstand the most cursory examination or questioning and so they adopt a head in the sand attitude and stay
that way until they die.
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Rumpl4skn



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aniam wrote:
Rumpl4skn wrote:
Or is there some kind of reverse rapture that's going to happen one day?

There isn't going to be a reverse rapture because the rapture itself is bogus. I touched on that earlier in this thread. Everyone is staying right here to reap what they have sown.

Ah-hah... another clue.

You belong to an obscure religious sect that forbids the recognition of sarcasm.

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