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the combustion engine...and water as a fuel
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Nat



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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Location: minime-rica

PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yep, testing...that's where it gets a little tricky, but hardly impossible, oh lottery win where art thou ?

brain need a little time to sift through stuff Laughing
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obeylittle



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Naw it isn't going to be that big a deal. My best friend has a lathe in his shop that I use to make our own racing parts. I am planning on machining out a water turbine from my current idea in the spring anyway, when winter is easing up around here, so I can add another project to the wishlist. No biggie once the water is soft and moving in the creeks again.

Ceramic was only suggested as a working cylinder lining material since it can be made very smooth and slick, is not affected by water, can be used with very little or no lubrication and handles extreme temperatures without weakening, expanding, or distorting. But for testing purposes many common, inexpensive materials could be used.

This has grown into a personal back and forth thread of ideas though... so I'll run off for now. But if you have more to add, please do!
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Nat



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

s'all good Obey, erm, i'm not really very, very envious of your resources for testing, but i hope you'll remember to tell big oil it was all my fault Wink

LOL, i wish i could come over and join in, but it's probably about 2,000 miles further than i can realistically cycle Laughing

obeylittle wrote:
This has grown into a personal back and forth thread of ideas though... so I'll run off for now. But if you have more to add, please do!

dude, i'm sure anyone who thought based on the thread title that they'd be interested in the contents, is most interested in this back and forth

i'm sure i will have more to add after absorbing the above

if you go 'patent'/profit, i want a cut, mm'kay ? Smile
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Nat



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obeylittle wrote:
I know that some Steam Engines are designed to run at incredible temperatures and we know that steam is "dry", not wet, while it is a gas, before expansion takes place in the steam engine. After the heat energy is released from the expanding steam in the engine it becomes "wet" again... just warm water, so it won't burn then obviously. But you ask a great question; since water vapor is "dry" not wet, why in sam hell won't it burn if it is nothing more than a "dry" hydrogen/oxygen gas, after all?

Maybe we should try it like you said... light the gas off and see what happens. Maybe the answer is simple but no one is looking for it? Because water looks too "wet" and can't burn... :roll:

It might be that water needs to be seriously perverted too, as you suggest. Or just subjected to an environment where water does something unpredictable...

steam is DRY ? Shocked ...oh, i think that's possibly of spectacular significance

steam is dry...if steam can be dry under pressure...then hot, pressurised, fine droplet water vapour may well produce a similar result...water could be heated in jackets around the cylinders - pre-heating - or perhaps converted to actual steam by heat transfer from the exhaust manifold...this goes back to the ethanol warm up cycle i suggested, a dual fuel system...might be the case that the water could be raised to near boiling, then atomising injectors do their bit, and the combustion chamber pressure and heat provide the final paramenters for ignition...if there are problems with burning ethanol and water in combination, then it might be possible to have a sudden changeover from one to the other, after however long is required to get to water boiling and/or suitable combustion chamber temperatures

i think it possible that there might be a very narrow range of suitable compression/pressurisation of the water to make it go bang, but, that should not present too big an issue (i think)

such an engine might need to run extremely hot internally, but if all you're really burning is water, does a little heat [inefficiency] matter ?...i expect the fuel would need to be distilled water, or things like injectors would choke up pretty quickly...it might even be possible to distill water in real time through the preheating or boiling process*, so no monopoly of fuel any more...big business would NOT like that ...but you wouldn't see me crying over it Twisted Evil

*(perhaps in easily and cheaply replaceable and recyclable distilling 'packs', if the fuelling system had pairs of these, then one could be in use, with a second in reserve should the first become blocked or inefficient...sorry, but i'm a sucker for thinking of the finishing touches before the thing's even begun Laughing )

"do any of you need to take a piss, 'cos we're getting low on fuel here"

i think there's surely some potential here...Obey, you're making me jealous Laughing ...i hope you do try some experiments if you're able...you know when - inside, you know things are a certain way, but you have reservations, doubts - in the name of balance, but through experiment you find your instinct was right ?...i get huge vibes of that kind off water as a combustible fuel - big time

some mix of pressure/droplet size/temperature/ignition type (perhaps with a catalysing fuel such as ethanol to some degree) just 'has' to make water go bang, in a moment of cockiness i just know it

and who knows ?...it might just be the case, that fine droplet size and pressure are enough to make that dog hunt after all ? no need for the heat ?

this is either very foolish talk, or we're on the cusp of something amazing Wink
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obeylittle



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
...if steam can be dry under pressure...then hot, pressurised, fine droplet water vapour may well produce a similar result...water could be heated in jackets around the cylinders - pre-heating - or perhaps converted to actual steam by heat transfer from the exhaust manifold...this goes back to the ethanol warm up cycle i suggested, a dual fuel system...might be the case that the water could be raised to near boiling, then atomising injectors do their bit, and the combustion chamber pressure and heat provide the final paramenters for ignition...if there are problems with burning ethanol and water in combination, then it might be possible to have a sudden changeover from one to the other, after however long is required to get to water boiling and/or suitable combustion chamber temperatures


The alcohols (ethanol, methanol etc.) mix readily with water, but mixing them would accomplish nothing more than dilution of a fuel with a known flash point wouldn't it? And to suggest that you could preheat water to create steam or get water hot enough that only a few degrees more in temperature would cause it to become a dry gas -- from the heat of an ethanol or other fuel's combustion... well that is circular and uneconomical to nature. That would be perpetual, or getting more energy out of a closed system than was input. Nature'll have no part of that. Can't be done that way just yet.

Quote:
some mix of pressure/droplet size/temperature/ignition type (perhaps with a catalysing fuel such as ethanol to some degree) just 'has' to make water go bang, in a moment of cockiness i just know it

and who knows ?...it might just be the case, that fine droplet size and pressure are enough to make that dog hunt after all ? no need for the heat ?

this is either very foolish talk, or we're on the cusp of something amazing


Well, I don't know about that... As I understand water, it is still water even when it is in a gas form. Water as a gas, such as steam, is dry as the Sahara, but its still water and won't burn... far as I know. If it won't burn while its dry then I can't understand how it could burn if it was atomized or "wet".

Is there a more economical way than electrolysis to extract the hydrogen from water while it is a gas, rather than a liquid? Can nature produce hydrogen? If so, how (and where) is hydrogen released in nature? These are questions I've never asked myself before and I doubt I can simply google the answers.

What say someone (me) wonders that if we forget about burning water and figure out how nature would handle it with or without extreme temperatures and/or pressures. What about very low pressures (vacuum)... or some sort of electro-chemical thing or frequency excitement... Hell, I've never even tried electrolysis before have you? I know nothing...
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Nat



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you know much, Obey, stop being so modest Smile

obeylittle wrote:
The alcohols (ethanol, methanol etc.) mix readily with water, but mixing them would accomplish nothing more than dilution of a fuel with a known flash point wouldn't it? And to suggest that you could preheat water to create steam or get water hot enough that only a few degrees more in temperature would cause it to become a dry gas -- from the heat of an ethanol or other fuel's combustion... well that is circular and uneconomical to nature. That would be perpetual, or getting more energy out of a closed system than was input. Nature'll have no part of that. Can't be done that way just yet.

this is scarily close to 'by the book' thinking, surely you burnt the book by now ? Wink ...i find these 'perpetual' angles to be perpetually perplexing...i understand the nature of that line of reason in principle, but in application i have real problems trying to apply this perpetuality argument, it's like saying that having a gasoline fuel line running too close to the exhaust of the gasoline engine could never boil the gasoline in that pipe, because that would be perpetual motion/overunity type stuff...do you see what i mean ? what's perpetual about that ? Shocked my car when all the water in the cooling system boiled off never rolled to a halt with the 'overunity warning light' glowing, far from it

i'm not assuming at all, that the water has to be boiled for this engine to run, more that some degree of heating may be a necessary part of the pre-injection process, and i'd be reasonably willing to place a bet on the water being boilable by the heat given off from the engine, anyway

obeylittle wrote:
As I understand water, it is still water even when it is in a gas form. Water as a gas, such as steam, is dry as the Sahara, but its still water and won't burn... far as I know. If it won't burn while its dry then I can't understand how it could burn if it was atomized or "wet".

sure, but if that atomised 'wet' vapour is crunched down very tight and is present in a very hot chamber (let's assume an uncooled cylinder block for a mo', and it's hot in there), then, going back to my original reason for posting this thread, i see no reason on or off earth to write it off as potentially combustible, to my mind it just needs that mystery degree of crunch and hot and spark

this is theory, and theory is best kept 100 yards away from 'established facts' at all times, or the theorising goes nowhere and achieves little

it's no good, if i could i'd still start trying it tomorrow, no matter how eruditely or saliently put the argument against is Smile

obeylittle wrote:
Is there a more economical way than electrolysis to extract the hydrogen from water while it is a gas, rather than a liquid? Can nature produce hydrogen? If so, how (and where) is hydrogen released in nature? These are questions I've never asked myself before and I doubt I can simply google the answers.

i reckon in the right circumstances, a little leccy might do that simultaneously whilst igniting that mixture too, might be that this would require something akin to a two stroke ignition - once to decombobulate the water into two burnable things, a second to light it up

obeylittle wrote:
What say someone (me) wonders that if we forget about burning water and figure out how nature would handle it with or without extreme temperatures and/or pressures. What about very low pressures (vacuum)... or some sort of electro-chemical thing or frequency excitement... Hell, I've never even tried electrolysis before have you? I know nothing...

i've dabbled in electrolysis a little, quite boring to watch, less sexy than popping overun in third Laughing


Last edited by Nat on Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:10 am; edited 3 times in total
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obeylittle



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right about the thinking part too cuz if we all followed the leaders with the lies we wouldn't learn anything would we. I see what yer sayin, just don't know nothing. Embarassed
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Nat



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh shush ! Smile

i have for a long many years been utterly convinced that lack of knowledge IS intelligence, that's what makes me so smart Wink

maybe your friend and you could mull this over while you're working on that tasty motor of his ?
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Nat



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

obeylittle wrote:
What say someone (me) wonders that if we forget about burning water and figure out how nature would handle it with or without extreme temperatures and/or pressures. What about very low pressures (vacuum)... or some sort of electro-chemical thing or frequency excitement... Hell, I've never even tried electrolysis before have you? I know nothing...

by the way, i really like the vacuum idea, are you thinking that the water (perhaps injected as a fine spray...love that fine spray thing, don't i ? :roll: ) can be fed into a vacuum - or simply a very low pressure chamber...which might be sustainable as a continuous process - like a 'production line' ? - might cause the water to yield its two components ?...sounds intriguing...maybe the water could be statically charged on its way into such a chamber, and that might catalyse any seperation process ?...or maybe the chamber itself could be charged electrically ?...to be honest i have no idea what might/how it might happen, but it certainly sounds worth giving it a go, or subjecting it to further debate
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obeylittle



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I mentioned low pressure I was thinking about the destructive powers that water has. I was thinking about Cavitation which occurs in water at very low pressures.

You have probably seen boat motor propellers that were all pitted and scoured behind the blades... The water turns to gas and the gas bubbles implode, tearing small chunks of metal out of the prop. You can make your boat motor cavitate by angling the motor up so that the prop is near the surface. As you get up to speed and plane out the motor rpms will suddenly speed up. Try it a few times then inspect your prop... the paint will be gone and small pits will be behind the blade tips. Metal is literally blown out of the prop during the implosion of the gas bubble.

Low pressure man...
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obeylittle



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Back to the basics for a bit... thinking about electrolysis and wondering if water can be "titillated" into doing stuff by finding resonances etc.

How does radiation interact with matter? A matter of frequency.

A phenomenon of nature: the oxygen molecule (O2) absorbs electromagnetic energy at 60 GHz like a piece of food in a microwave oven.

The neutral but paramagnetic oxygen molecule absorbs energy at the 60 GHz and 118 GHz frequencies because the magnetic moment of the oxygen molecule interacts with the rho-type triplet rotational ground states of oxygen.

Microwave energy at resonant frequencies of oxygen that occur around 60 GHz (or the lone absorption peak at 118 GHz), to reduce the atmospheric concentration of O[4][+], a thermally unstable cluster ion that is vital to the most significant reaction for squelching electron transport via recombination in cold dry air: O[4][+] + e[-] = O[2] + O[2].

Radio waves can cause nuclei of some atoms to change their magnetic orientation. This is known as nuclear magnetic resonance (nmr) spectroscopy and is the basis of the new medical application magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Atomic nuclei, e.g. hydrogen nuclei, behave like little magnets and can align themselves with or against an applied magnetic field. It is possible for the nuclei to "flip" between the "with" and "against" states; the energy difference between the two states is quite small and corresponds to radio frequency waves and 60 or 90 MHz radio waves are commonly used to effect the "flip". The precise radio frequency required depends on the chemical environment of the atomic nucleus as the magnetic field felt by a nucleus is influenced by neighboring atoms which of course are potential magnets.

Spin-spin coupling.

A given hydrogen nucleus can exist in one of two spin states; it is the transition between these states that gives rise to the NMR spectral line. Other adjacent hydrogen atoms in the same environment, for example all the methyl hydrogen atoms in ethanol, do not affect the absorption. However this is no longer true when the hydrogen atoms are non-equivalent. In ethanol, for example, the hydrogen atoms on the methyl group interact with those on the methylene group their magnetic fields couple. The effect of coupling on the spectrum is that the lines are split into multiplets. Most coupling occurs between hydrogen atoms on adjacent carbon atoms, so in the ethanol spectrum there is splitting of the lines due to the methyl and methylene hydrogen atoms, but not that of the hydroxyl hydrogen it is too far away.

Something to chew on... its not hard to apply microwave frequencies at 60ghz. Playing with magnetism is one of my favorite things to do too... I have about 90 various NIB magnets... See my avatar.

Its interesting that oxygen has an absorption peak at 118ghz no? So I wonder what is the absorption peak of hydrogen? Or water just for more understanding?

Molecular Vibration and Absorption

Since I know nothing about water I thought I'd sneak in the back door... but now I have even more questions! Sunday night I'll get answers... maybe I'll share.
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Nat



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obeylittle wrote:
When I mentioned low pressure I was thinking about the destructive powers that water has. I was thinking about Cavitation which occurs in water at very low pressures.

You have probably seen boat motor propellers that were all pitted and scoured behind the blades... The water turns to gas and the gas bubbles implode, tearing small chunks of metal out of the prop. You can make your boat motor cavitate by angling the motor up so that the prop is near the surface. As you get up to speed and plane out the motor rpms will suddenly speed up. Try it a few times then inspect your prop... the paint will be gone and small pits will be behind the blade tips. Metal is literally blown out of the prop during the implosion of the gas bubble.

Low pressure man...


hmm, interesting, i got a book on cavitation a few years ago, shiny red cover, about 175 pages, and fifty quid it was Shocked ...and i still haven't read it !

my stick blender cavitates big time, so i encounter the phenomenon in the kitchen...and when it does, the motor seems to run quicker than out in the 'open' air

it's certainly a strange thing, like you say, LOW pressure...dammit if you don't keep on serving up amazing insight, Obey

somewhere in this mix of hydro/pneuma-oddities is something, i'm certain of it

i also bought a companion shiny blue book on sonoluminescence...it was also outrageously expensive...wonder why ? Wink sonoluminescence...now there's another wacky occurance and no mistake...also not read yet, they're both in 'deep storage' too (my library is a series of very heavy plastic crates), stacked very high...but if you should want me to dig them out, let me know and i can scan the juiciest bits or at least tell you who wrote/published - they do seem like decent works


Last edited by Nat on Sun Mar 18, 2007 2:25 pm; edited 3 times in total
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