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the combustion engine...and water as a fuel
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Nat



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 840
Location: minime-rica

PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obeylittle wrote:
Back to the basics for a bit... thinking about electrolysis and wondering if water can be "titillated" into doing stuff by finding resonances etc.

How does radiation interact with matter? A matter of frequency.

A phenomenon of nature: the oxygen molecule (O2) absorbs electromagnetic energy at 60 GHz like a piece of food in a microwave oven.

The neutral but paramagnetic oxygen molecule absorbs energy at the 60 GHz and 118 GHz frequencies because the magnetic moment of the oxygen molecule interacts with the rho-type triplet rotational ground states of oxygen.

Microwave energy at resonant frequencies of oxygen that occur around 60 GHz (or the lone absorption peak at 118 GHz), to reduce the atmospheric concentration of O[4][+], a thermally unstable cluster ion that is vital to the most significant reaction for squelching electron transport via recombination in cold dry air: O[4][+] + e[-] = O[2] + O[2].

Radio waves can cause nuclei of some atoms to change their magnetic orientation. This is known as nuclear magnetic resonance (nmr) spectroscopy and is the basis of the new medical application magnetic resonance imaging (MRI). Atomic nuclei, e.g. hydrogen nuclei, behave like little magnets and can align themselves with or against an applied magnetic field. It is possible for the nuclei to "flip" between the "with" and "against" states; the energy difference between the two states is quite small and corresponds to radio frequency waves and 60 or 90 MHz radio waves are commonly used to effect the "flip". The precise radio frequency required depends on the chemical environment of the atomic nucleus as the magnetic field felt by a nucleus is influenced by neighboring atoms which of course are potential magnets.

Spin-spin coupling.

A given hydrogen nucleus can exist in one of two spin states; it is the transition between these states that gives rise to the NMR spectral line. Other adjacent hydrogen atoms in the same environment, for example all the methyl hydrogen atoms in ethanol, do not affect the absorption. However this is no longer true when the hydrogen atoms are non-equivalent. In ethanol, for example, the hydrogen atoms on the methyl group interact with those on the methylene group their magnetic fields couple. The effect of coupling on the spectrum is that the lines are split into multiplets. Most coupling occurs between hydrogen atoms on adjacent carbon atoms, so in the ethanol spectrum there is splitting of the lines due to the methyl and methylene hydrogen atoms, but not that of the hydroxyl hydrogen it is too far away.

Something to chew on... its not hard to apply microwave frequencies at 60ghz. Playing with magnetism is one of my favorite things to do too... I have about 90 various NIB magnets... See my avatar.

Its interesting that oxygen has an absorption peak at 118ghz no? So I wonder what is the absorption peak of hydrogen? Or water just for more understanding?

Molecular Vibration and Absorption


Since I know nothing about water I thought I'd sneak in the back door... but now I have even more questions! Sunday night I'll get answers... maybe I'll share.

wow ! i felt that one zip over my head, accompanied by a vvvvvvvtttt, dude Smile

so a microwave field applied to say, air, might do some cool stuff to it ?...i suppose/hope, that if it turns out that a micowave field can be used for this, that it's harmless to the birds and trees/yous and mes ?

i wonder if it might end up being possible for it to be a process done in real time in the application ? or would this possibly be done in a production facility ? i'd hate to have any part in your coming over all "i am become death" Oppenheimer ...but then again, in this context it seems to me that it could be reasonably innocuous as a process (read: hopefully totally innocuous)

i'd like to see it (assuming it's something like that which yields the goodies and it's got no health timebomb potential) fitted in the application, screw those centralists, eh ?

magnets are cool, are they not ? i cannot believe it's taken 100 years or so for starter motors and alternators to be combined into one again, cycles, rotations, goes around, comes around !

"answers" ? "maybe share" ? please, sir, do !
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Nat



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 840
Location: minime-rica

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ooh, a thought, a one, two or three cylinder piston 'engine' as a testbed for various pressure/temperature/compression states...

test engine: two injectors per cylinder (or three for full overkill with the expandable options)/water-corrosion proof construction (as described upthread), hydraulically or electronically actuated valves (linear motor/electromagnets ?), piezo electric ignition (?), and, here's the best bit, a high torque electric motor driving the crankshaft with a decoupleable attachment (for physically seperating the two for that 'OMFG it's only going round all by itself under water (or other) fuel source' moment when you want to be sure it's really happening after all...and what this motor allows you to do is drive the piston such that you can force varying degrees of pressure within, even a partial or full vacuum - or even something beyond a vacuum (if that's possible) - sort of 'absolute vacuum' to temperatures absolute zero (might have overstepped the plausibility/usefulness mark there Laughing but certainly a low pressure facility)...this would give you a testbed able to provide anywhere from zero to 'a lot of' atmospheres pressure

computer control of the valves would supplement this to make it a high or low compression doodad - to force different experimental parameters upon the 'fuel' mix, and the beauty of this is that it would be immensely flexible, an effectively limitless 'hey, let's try this' machine...once any self reciprocating cycling is achieved, pull the electric motor off the crank, gawp at the engine going round, make celebratory cup/glass of favourite tipple Laughing

so say one assumes for a moment that a 'charge' - the mixture or combination of elements injected into the engine - needs to be put through a low pressure cycle, then the cylinders could be used in a sort of two stroke cycle..the first movement of the piston down in the cylinder forces a low pressure environent upon the charge, allowing sparks/possibly microwaves/other catalyising or influencing factors to be applied in something at least in the direction of a vacuum/cavitation environment, the piston rises up again and the charge is ignited to release the energy made available in the down stroke, or indeed, the ignition under pressure after the low pressure bit might be part of the conversion process, and the piston draws down again for the injection of any supplemental air or other elements, rises up again, and the second compression cycle is where the 'true' ignition occurs

i appreciate that this might be no help with your air (?) at low pressure ideas, but it's certainly a thought
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Nat



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

some interesting stuff on magnetism going on here ...as for water as a fuel: i went to see a friend last week who has been using water as a fuel for some time Shocked - not actually seen it running myself, but what he has is a generator which runs on most fuels such as oils or paraffin, and spookily enough he says that how he uses water as a fuel (the details of which i was not aware of until this week), is to preheat it using a spiral water jacket around the exhaust manifold, which pre heats the water to above boiling temperature, and is then pulled into the inlet system using low pressure on the down stroke of the piston

he concurs that water is indeed dry as a hot vapour

what he says, is that in the case of his generator, there is a twin spark - the first ignition ignites the fuel, which also splits the water, and the second spark ignites the hydrogen and oxygen...he reckons around 50% water fuel under load is possible, with as much as 70% under light load...this is pretty impressive already, but with refinement of the processes involved and perhaps using modern high compression engines and stuff like direct injection, the numbers could be improved upon quite a bit

it was from him that i got the info on warming up the engine first on a pure conventional fuel before switching to water

he also says that the blower Bentleys used water injection (i wasn't aware of that) i think he said it was routed from the cooling system, which could be a clever idea, refeeding the cooling system with cooler water, routing the heated water to the fuel system - sounds interesting

think that's about it, but if i remember more, i'll add later

i did ask him if he'd be willing to add his know how here, but unfortunately he declined, i'll keep firing this stuff at him though Wink
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obeylittle



Joined: 10 Sep 2006
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Location: Middle o' Mitten, Michigan Corp. division of United States of America Corp. division of Global Corp.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm... I'm confused about the double spark thing in an internal combustion motor. Because once a fuel is ignited by a spark, a flame front expands from the point of ignition until all the burnable air and fuel have been consumed and converted to heat.

In a cylinder/piston or rotary (Wankel) motor the flame burns throughout the power stroke, until the exhaust valve opens (4-stroke) or exhaust port is uncovered (2-stroke or Wankel) by the piston or rotor. The same happens in a heat-ignition motor such as the diesel. Fuel must "burn" in a controlled process or at a controlled "speed" so the heat energy can be more efficiently converted to doing work. Explosive, or extremely fast burning fuels can't be used because the heat expansion does not occur over a long enough time span to be harnessed by the piston or rotor, into motion and work. Shock forces are a bitch to convert...

So introducing a second spark to ignite a "secondary fuel", while a primary fuel is already burning (much hotter than any second spark can) does not make sense. The fuel and air is just completing the burn when the exhaust opens... Its still a flaming mass. If a secondary fuel is introduced to the flame front it will ignite and burn from the superior flaming source of ignition, not from a puny, much cooler spark.

So if water vapor could be split into hydrogen and oxygen to burn inside a cylinder, an existing flame front would ignite it much more readily and efficiently than any second spark could.
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Nat



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh well, that's what the guy told me - never seen it running - Alfa Romeo for a while had a 't-spark' engine in production, that used a staggered twin spark also, so if it worked there, it should at least potentially work elsewhere too

put it this way, i think the lack of utilisation is more to do with finance and profit than possibility
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obeylittle



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are right about the manufacturers added cost for high performing ignitions. Most car makers don't offer them.

There are several types of multiple spark discharge ignitions available through the aftermarket. Most use capacitor discharge schemes matched with optimized coils to produce several sparks over the span of several milliseconds. MSD boxes are used in all forms of racing for precision spark control features and greater capacity.

Another implementation adds a second spark plug to a high output ignition, either to insure initial ignition takes place, or to produce a second flame front, depending on the combustion chamber design, the fuel type and the intended purpose. Top Fuel dragsters are a modern example of the two spark plug ignition system.

All ignition systems perform the same task though. All get the flame(s) lit at the desired time whether by producing a single spark or multiple. Once the flame(s) are lit, the ignition task is complete and its the fuel type, fuel and air mixture ratios and compression pressure, that determine the propagation speed of the flame front(s).

Maybe this is the confusion over second sparks.
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Nat



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

could be, Obey, but what i meant by that comment was, assuming you can use water as described to me by him, or indeed some other way, the profit situation would be a problem for the energy companies who would not approve of a halving in use of fossil fuel...finance and profit as in they'd get a right caning

it is interesting that despite a single flame front probably being sufficient, second (or more) sparks are often desirable...i'm not sure exactly how in the end, water might work for combustion, or indeed if there are several ways - which would be best


interesting to note also, that a local chap down the road from me who used to produce biodiesel has now stopped because the gubment are taxing biofuel too harshly...so much for fears over the environment...fears for loss of revenue seem closer to a tipping point, eh ?
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Ozregeneration



Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Water Powered Cars Reply with quote

Greetings Matt,

This came today in my email and thought you may be interested.

http://www.thewaterengine.com/
http://www.thewaterengine.com/wfctech.htm

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Nat



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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Location: minime-rica

PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ozregeneration wrote:
Greetings Matt,

This came today in my email and thought you may be interested.

http://www.thewaterengine.com/
http://www.thewaterengine.com/wfctech.htm

hey Oz Smile

i very much welcome your input and appreciate your no baggage openness to viewing information sources equally...i had a look at the linked sites, but i have to say i was a little befuddled by them !...not too much actual detail being freely given out, the video of the electrolysis was interesting, looked like a large amount of gas being released, but...

i do have some doubts, not about your sincerity for a moment, but about the sincerity of the site operators, that's not to say i'd rule them out, it is to say, however, that without being able to see the nitty gritty of the process elaborated upon it is difficult to accept the veracity of its effectiveness

i know i'm fixated upon this other way of getting hydrogen/oxygen, other than by electrolysis, but i have this deep gut feeling that compression and/or vapourisation is the way to go...having said that, if the methods used in the sites you link work, then we'd be nuts to ignore them, i just have a very half baked knowledge of this stuff, but that does serve me surprisingly well, i think someone said something like "knowledge is a prison"...if they didn't, i'm calling it as my own Wink

the electrolysis method raises some interesting points however, even if ultimately it is NOT possible to electrolytically get useful quantities of hydrogen outside of some large factory (which in all sincerity i doubt, i do believe that it is within the realms of possibility to produce fuel in this manner, perhaps not on a 'just in time' basis in a vehicle, but certainly in localised, non centralised mini-plants) - electrolysis methods of extracting the constituents of water are a valuable precedent for the potential use of water

i do feel strongly that a process whereby the end output (say, reciprocating energy production in an internal combustion engine) also supplies the input (the heat in the engine - and the pressurised cycle combined with ignition or other catalysing process) is the preferable route to go by...electrolysis on the other hand appears to me to be high energy intensive at the input stage, without the opportunity to combine the in/out symbiotically - which is crucial in my opinion...hence my belief in the use of some variation of internal combustion engines in this process
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Ozregeneration



Joined: 23 Jan 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

matt wrote:
i very much welcome your input and appreciate your no baggage openness to viewing information sources equally...i had a look at the linked sites, but i have to say i was a little befuddled by them !...not too much actual detail being freely given out, the video of the electrolysis was interesting, looked like a large amount of gas being released, but...

i do have some doubts, not about your sincerity for a moment, but about the sincerity of the site operators, that's not to say i'd rule them out, it is to say, however, that without being able to see the nitty gritty of the process elaborated upon it is difficult to accept the veracity of its effectiveness

Greetings Matt,
I'll just keep passing it on. Wink As I've mentioned previously, at the moment I am not investigating these ideas myself and forward any information that comes my way without it first being vetted. I figure if I haven't been previously exploring what is already out there then I feel it is hard for me to make a judgment one way or the other. Confused

Regardless what others have said about the Joe Cell, I still believe that there may be something in that. I will be keeping in contact with people here who are researching it and will pass on anything which may be of interest.

Cheers

Oz

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Nat



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i appreciate it Cool

please keep forwardin' Oz Smile
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noplacebo



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:33 pm    Post subject: energy from water Reply with quote

hello, i have been following your thread on energy from h2o, and it seems that water being so fond of anomalies, mainstream havent yet got to the bottom of this yet for us.mmm just like lots of things ,anyway i was wondering if you have read anything of a pioneer in the nature of water called victor schauberger . there is a book of his theories (of which every one now is borrowing)called living energies by callum coates. also you will find interesting this unexplained energy from water device, that is in commercial production, you can google this , directorycavitation heaters-peswiki. i hope i have been of help.
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