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paradox



Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the no voting. But it cannot be enforced. If you have a small, tiny amount of participants, they can turn around and claim it was chosen.

So no vote doesn't work. A world vote is just the opposite.

It's an affirmation, a statement of something else. If the world votes, then the world knows, if the question is clear enough.

----------

Wu Li, your keen eyes sense the reality of the contracts which bind people. You are quite correct in stating corporation is the key to survival. You see this ever increasing trend and so do I.

It's actually pretty easy too, figuring how to restructure yourself and your habits to maximize your benefits.

It's clear that since the corporation is a shield against liability, in a very large number of cases, it gives a freedom that we as individuals do not have. If this is a path to dark powers, I would say probably, but not necessarily.

I don't want to discourage thinking in this direction, but let is simply remain aware of the immense temptation power would put in our reach. That by itself may outweigh concerns about infiltrations.

_________________
There is no single definition of truth about which the majority of philosophers agree. -Wikipedia.org
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

paradox wrote:
I like the no voting. But it cannot be enforced. If you have a small, tiny amount of participants, they can turn around and claim it was chosen.

So no vote doesn't work. A world vote is just the opposite.

It's an affirmation, a statement of something else. If the world votes, then the world knows, if the question is clear enough.

----------
• I meant to suggest not voting just once - the point of the exercise being that IF there were zero votes cast, then any result other than "no votes cast" would prove deception about the voting process.

• It would be BECAUSE there were zero votes to manipulate that the voting manipulation would be impossible.

• The opposite of the illusion that our votes count would be to shatter the illusion that our votes count.

• A world vote is a statement of something else - for instance, what would the world vote on? But it is still within the paradigm of voting and, imo, still part of the mess.

• What is the opposite of today in which people seem to have the opportunity to participate in the process by way of 1) a choice to vote & 2) vote to choose.

• The results are always accepted as the outcome of the vote by the people.

• The people BELIEVE their vote counts, and so it does count.

• The people never question the validity of their belief that their vote counts; and they need no further confirmation.

• Until now, what has sustained the whole process of voting is that our vote appeared to count.

• What people do not realize is that it is useless to talk about voting with reference to the past and think the past was "more perfect" than what we have now - it wasn't!

• It just seemed better at the time and there were less cracks in the curtain.

• There is no system of voting that we can say will work BECAUSE there is no voting system that has ever worked for anything EXCEPT to convince US that the votes counted.

• That is all voting has ever had to do with government; by our belief that our votes count we continue to believe in the government.

• It doesn't matter if the votes counted before and they don't count now or whatever -- to people who BELIEVE their votes have always counted for everything for which they ever voted, the right to vote what they cherished as citizens of the USA.

• The PTB will do their best to maintain the illusions, one of the reasons they probably thought the electronic voting would be a win-win: we get to keep voting, and we get to keep believing votes count.

• But they won't work THAT hard at it, and after a certain "tipping point" the truth will be out of the Pope anyway.
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The implications of the previous post:

Quote:
To change beliefs, people demand to be presented with undeniable evidence of something contrary to their beliefs - like their vote DOES NOT count;

• Until then, they will believe their vote DOES count;

• They will not demand any proof that their vote actually DOES count;

• They will ignore or reject evidence that their vote DOES NOT count or is manipulated (i.e. HBO documentary on Diebold, etc.)

• Implication: Beliefs cannot be changed.


So what does it matter what information there is to convince someone else? It is not about them.

The information we think is to convince others is really all about convincing our self.
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obeylittle



Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Middle o' Mitten, Michigan Corp. division of United States of America Corp. division of Global Corp.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't see any benefits or potential for growth through not voting. We need to solve problems together by instituting new and fair solutions. We need to provide a means to nurture Unity in decision making to accomplish goals. I think we just need to communicate mostly.

Voting on solutions is one fine tool we may find useful and an efficient means to record. So enough of the silly activism... lets work on moving forward with real solutions. With our own visionary systems providing co-creator roles for every human being.

As for the corporate/human power angle... well that is more of the same conquer all, rule-by-power tyranny isn't it? The systems we are living within and under are very destructive pyramid models with the CEO type "leaders" at the top. There can be no Unity nor Liberty for all under this repressive model. I'd rather not go there anymore. Its not the answer for anything -- its a large part of our problems -- so lets kick it to the curb. We will probably need to regulate corporations at the community level.

We do have a vision for Liberty, don't we all..? Lets talk about that.
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paradox



Joined: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 212

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

obeylittle, I agree very much. Even the voting of a temporary figurehead, a 'representative' of the world, with no power except observation, well. Yes that would work.

There would be massive attempt at manipulating a world vote, however, China and India have huge populations. Selling them Hillary would be a joke as would be any neocon.

obeylittle, just a few years ago, say twenty, the possibility of a world vote seemed way to large to contemplate, taking, at least, a few months to accomplish.

But today, with the Internet and satellite systems, we could have a world vote extremely fast, maybe a few days, or a week at worst.

Of course, that week exclude the huge preparation that needs to be done. I'm quite sure someone, somewhere has already started a world vote effort.


Here's a question I would put.

"Should we compost more? Given that compost can regenerate our soils, improve our food, treat chemical spills, eliminate some radiations and establish harmony with nature, should we compost more?"

There are about a million more questions we would need. But yes, world elections can bring about great change, if done and planned outside the System.

I believe a world observer could find quite a lot of dirt on many people, even the highly ranked. I could even imagine many individual being 'indisposed' to meet the Observer.
________
BrianaV


Last edited by paradox on Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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obeylittle



Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Middle o' Mitten, Michigan Corp. division of United States of America Corp. division of Global Corp.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted to edit the above post to add this but for some odd reason the edit button is not displayed now. Anyway, just for clarification, a great portion of the message I'm trying to inject here on this forum has to do with Environment.

My vision for Universal Liberty on this planet is dependent upon our co-creating an Environment for all else to be constructed... a foundation to co-create and co-exist symbiotic-ally. With membership and active role for every man, woman and child on the planet. No inherent restrictions or limits.

Environment. Environment. Environment.

My messages all originate from that single most important requirement of birth. Its a simple little thing Nature does... all species thrive when provided an optimum Environment. Competiting threats in nature are minimized through adaptability to their Environment. We need only envision an optimum Human Environment to occupy. We can deliver that Environment at will.

Our goal...? Liberty. An infinitely expanding NOW with a natural, self-sustaining Future.

Us. Vision. Environment. Growth. Celebrate. Now.
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obeylittle



Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Middle o' Mitten, Michigan Corp. division of United States of America Corp. division of Global Corp.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more little point I'd like to offer is counter to the globalist references here... I don't envision a need or a want for a World Voting System at this time. We aren't here to provide a global solution, we are here to provide one that works for us, wherever we may reside.

Start local. Co-create an optimum Environment. Keep it local until a natural growth empowers and expands our opportunities to help others achieve their own vision of Liberty. Their Environment... their vision... their nation... their Liberty. Through a natural process known as symbiosis.
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK - let me try to clarify what I mean to say ~

1. Contemplate the hypothetical idea that voting, as we know it, has never been about the noble pursuit as defined in the Constitution.
2. That is not to suggest that voting has not been a big part of government.
3. That is to infer that we have never voted on the most important decisions made by governments on our behalf.
4. I welcome the question what is liberty & question whether voting is about liberty or dominance?
5. Yes, we have the opportunity to vote but -- does it really matter?

What does the word 'vote' mean?

Quote:
vote
noun
a formal indication of a choice between two or more candidates or courses of action, expressed typically through a ballot or a show of hands or by voice.
• an act of expressing such an indication of choice : they are ready to put it to a vote.
• the choice expressed collectively by a body of electors or by a specified group : the Republican vote in Florida.
• the right to indicate a choice in an election.

verb
give or register a vote : they voted against the resolution
• cause to gain or lose a particular post or honor by means of a vote : incompetent judges are voted out of office.
• used to express a wish to follow a particular course of action : I vote we have one more game.
• grant or confer by vote.
• reject by means of a vote.

ORIGIN late Middle English : from Latin votum ‘a vow, wish,’ from vovere ‘to vow.’ The verb dates from the mid 16th century.

So if 'vote' is derived from the word 'vow' what does 'vow' mean?

Quote:
vow
noun
a solemn promise.
• a set of such promises committing one to a prescribed role, calling, or course of action, typically to marriage or a monastic career.

verb
1. solemnly promise to do a specified thing : he vowed that his government would not tolerate a repeat of the disorder | one fan vowed, “I'll picket every home game.”
2. archaic dedicate to someone or something, esp. a deity : I vowed myself to this enterprise.

ORIGIN Middle English : from Old French vou, from Latin votum (see vote); the verb from Old French vouer.

I see voting as making a solemn promise that has not worked in the way we were told BUT it has worked well to maintain attention away from things that are never disclosed.

I see voting as an integral part of the industrial/corporate/congressional complex that has turned the government into a war factory running on campaign contributions to get re-elected.

I see voting as elected officials afraid of losing votes will keep the B-2 bomber factory in their district going strong so he gets re-elected.

I see voting as the trough that keeps feeding the voters what they really want: to line up and feed the government their opinion.

I see voting results as the government feedback loud and clear "thank you, voter - we hear you."

I see voting as integral to the belief that the people have a voice in government.

I see voting patterns that clearly indicate voter sentiment does not affect the most important decisions - even when voters are heard.

I see voting manipulation, deceit, deception, etc. all disclosed by Al Gore in his book "The Assault on Reason" as even more reasons voting does not work.

I see the function of voting as the antithesis of liberty.
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or to borrow from the metaphor:

Quote:
PATIENT: "Hey Doc, every time I vote my taxes go up! What should I do?"

DOC: "Don't do that anymore."
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

VOTING forces DIVISION = The Antithesis of UNITY

EVERY vote requires the people to choose between 2 or more candidates.

That means that every vote is the means by which to DIVIDE & RULE.

Quote:
Divide & Rule

• In politics and sociology, divide and rule (also known as divide and conquer) is a combination political, military and economic strategy of gaining and maintaining power by breaking up larger concentrations of power into chunks that individually have less power than the one implementing the strategy.

• In reality, it often refers to a strategy where small power groups are prevented from linking up and becoming more powerful, since it is difficult to break up existing power structures.

• Effective use of this technique allows those with little real power to control those who collectively have a lot of power (or would have much more power, were they able to unite).

• The phrase is attributed to Philip II, king of Macedon (382-336 BC), describing his policy toward the Greek city-states.

Typical elements of this technique involve:

Quote:
• creating or at least not preventing petty feuds among smaller players (such feuds drain resources and prevent alliances that could challenge the overlords);

• aiding and promoting those who are willing to cooperate with the overlords, often by giving them the lands and wealth of rebellious local rulers;

• fostering distrust and enmity between local rulers;

• encouraging expenditures on personal frivolities (i.e. showy palaces) that leave little money for political maneuvering and warfare.


This technique requires a lot of skill and political finesse, as well as a good understanding of political science, history and psychology.

"Divide and rule" works only if the subjects of this technique are willing to go along with it (e.g., because it is to their personal advantage), or behave foolishly.

It works best in societies where competition between noble families, clans or social classes was already fierce before the overlord took over.

The strategy was used to great effect by administrators of vast empires, including the Roman and British, who would play one tribe against another to maintain control of their territories with a minimal number of imperial forces.

The concept of 'Divide and Rule' gained prominence when India was a part of the British Empire, but was also the strategy used by the Romans to take Britain, and for the Anglo-Normans to take Ireland.

The British used the strategy to gain control of the large territory of India by keeping its people divided along lines of religion, language, caste etc. The British took control of petty princely states in India piecemeal.

Also mentioned as a strategy for market action in economics, it can be applied to get the most out of the players in a competitive market.

Examples of Divide and Conquer Strategies:

Quote:
United States
Many people view the increasing polarization of voting blocs by wedge issues as being an example of "Divide and Rule."

Examples include: abortion, gun control, and gay marriage.

The key idea (*) is that these issues prevent the public from thinking about, let alone addressing, potentially more objectively important issues, such as global warming, the erosion of civil liberties under the Patriot Act, and the negative effects of lobbying on issues such as campaign finance reform and corruption.


(*) The quote is an example of "Divide & Rule" as it simply substitutes one division for another - it doesn't matter so long as DIVISION IS MAINTAINED.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divide_and_rule
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obeylittle



Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Middle o' Mitten, Michigan Corp. division of United States of America Corp. division of Global Corp.

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voting is not an issue I care to pay any attention to right now. I'm not engaging in argument in support or rejection of voting... I just don't care. What I am interested in now is a natural environment for growth. An environment for Liberty. This system of "voting" is irrelevant to that vision. Your mileage (or vision) may vary... that's why you'll need to carry your own water.
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DrewTerry
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just thought of an idea while reading about "Sicko" and thinking about health insurance and the idea about not voting.

If everyone refused insurance then no one would be covered and the system would grind to a halt.

Doctors and nurses are not going to stop treating people. It is the insurance companies that make health care all about money.

Yes, doctors have always done well, and rightly so. However, they are not doctors simply because they want to make money (at least not the good ones).

It is like any other profession: the people that tend to do well are the ones that do what they do because it is who they are and what they are passionate about doing (virtuously).

In any case, we have the power to refuse to participate, just as we all now have the power to participate.

By our participation we give our consent (or lack thereof).

With health care, it is not like those with great insurance have nothing to complain about. It seems like very few people are happy with health care no matter what their insurance status.

It seems like one area of concern where treating everyone equally with the best health care that can be reasonably provided should be the only priority. There should not even be a bill - the only record keeping regarding the patient consists of appointments, etc. - no money or mention of it anywhere, no bill, copay, nothing about money.

Of course, the bills need to be paid, but paid without assignment of cost to patient, department, etc. This is another form of class division that integrates seamlessly into "divide & rule." We think of it as "free choice" and "competition" creating more efficient markets. What purpose it really serves is to needlessly feed the machine.

Quote:
"The primary aim of modern warfare is to use up the products of the machine without raising the general standard of living."
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