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Tonto



Joined: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 16
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:25 am    Post subject: FSL - Awesome Reply with quote

Congratulations on a great audio. I have been thinking long and hard of a way to really make a difference in this crazy world. After hearing the audio and reading the great contributions here on the forum, I truly believe that Full Spectrum Liberty is our "nice hammer' that will change the world for the better. Cool
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To be governed is to have every operation, transaction, movement, noted, registered, counted, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, refused, authorized, endorsed, admonished, prevented, reformed, redressed, corrected.
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Ta Seti



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:49 pm    Post subject: A Future Worth Having? Reply with quote

Hiyas,
I'm enjoying the inspired creativity Smile

Flipping ideas around is an interesting way of looking at things (makes for some good mind candy), it reminds me of the Gnostic saying - "finding truth in opposites". The opposites aren't always that easy to spot, sometimes there are several opposites and sometimes they can be traps but then at the best of times they can be quite a revelation - seems you found a winner, navari.


MAKING IDEAS MANIFEST
As to how do we develop our ideas and get them out there ('into the market place' as it were), ... lacking anything better, we always have available to us 'Business related tools'. For rolling out a product or service, they come tried and tested and have served the work community well for quite some time. One area out of several that seems to suggest itself is Sales & Marketing. If we think about it, we probably all have various skills gained from working that we can adapt and share.

I am however quite struck on the idea of a Utopian Novel - this is another "finding truth in opposites" situation, they have their dystopic 'Brave New World', we have a lot better to offer the world.

Indeed this ('solutions') is one of the bases we need covered. When the old ways crumble or are crushed (as will happen), there may well be a (temporary) vacuum - nature abhors a vacuum. Either we are ready to fill the void or something or someone shall, - quite possibly another mob, more sinister than the last. Without having a direction, the tumbling of the old system serves little purpose ('those who do not have an agenda will end up working for those that do').



FUTURE POSSIBLE
My vision for a future is one in which there is no money, this includes no tokens, no credits no vouchers - not even bartering, - nothing of the kind. My reasoning for this is as follows:

This idea is based on how a typical family operates and by attempting to extend the concept to a global family where we are all brothers and sisters (grassroots - ground-up style). After all, you wouldn't typically charge your family for services rendered nor would you charge a family member to make them a widget with the intention of it rapidly falling apart just so you could rip them off again: You would pride yourself in building something for 'them' that lasted and was of the highest quality you could achieve.

As an interesting experiment/asides, you may wish to consider how your relationships with family and friends would work out if every single service rendered came with a price-tag.

The pursuit of money is more or less the root of all evil. When corporations provide a product or service, their motivation is to obtain as much money as possible. The actual quality of the product or service is a secondary consideration - it is only as good as it has to be and indeed, if it is profitable to make it worse (and it is), then they will do this. This is why we have built in obsolescence whereby products simply cease to function soon after any warrantee has expired. In fact, considerable design effort goes in to making sure they cease to be of use (we've come a long way from Victorian over-engineering).

This goes a long way to explaining why we have cars that rust and constantly require parts, why we end up buying expensive ink cartridges once we have invested in a printer and why we so many times buy something that doesn't look anything like the picture on the box.

It is also why we do not have everlasting light bulbs nor cars that do 200 mpg or even free-energy systems. - It's all about making money, it's not about looking after our interests.

I would also do away with patents because contrary to popular belief that they stimulate creativity, they actually stifle the free use of an idea.

This dream would require a shift in public consciousness (I'm deliberately avoiding use of the word 'culture'). People would need to appreciate that we all can gain 'big time' by simply pooling many of our resources, instead of selfishly hoarding them. I'm convinced that there are gains to be made in this whole approach; Just how far we could take this would depend on how ready people are to evolve however being a progressive method, it should work as far as we are ready and willing to take it and would evolve with us.

In a competitive (for money) world, we have a vast amount of duplication. That is to say a company that profits from designing footwear will not let another company share its 'trade secrets' and other researched findings and expertise - to do so would seriously jeopardise profits. Consequently we end up with a myriad of footwear developers up and down the globe all reproducing the exact same research and design etc, when you factor in that these shoes are intentionally designed to collapse and be replaced in short period, it can start to be appreciated just how much duplication of effort there is in the world simply to make a buck.

This goes for the labour required, premises, materials (an unnecessary drain on earth resources even if we have ample) and related industries that must get involved such as mining, power supply, other manufactures, distribution, waste disposal et al. This means that the 'economy' must somehow 'force/coerce' people to provide their labour 'unnecessarily' for these activities when they could be sipping cocktails on the beach.

When you apply a similar analysis not only to footwear but to every other industry, you can get an appreciation for just how much waste there really is, especially of our precious time - I roughly estimate that simply by doing away with this greed for cash, we could reduce the working week to under a day (probably still further), in addition, people would likely work for the sheer pleasure of it, being able to derive considerably more job satisfaction.

Everyone would also gain from a much greater abundance of wealth - in short, by doing away with money we could all 'afford' everything we need and with a lot more leisure time. - You need a pair of top quality, long-lasting shoes? - Simply help yourself!

There might be a few losers such as those elites, tyrants, emperors and dictators who wish to own everything and to hoard the planet's wealth for themselves but frankly, I could live with their loss and suspect many others could too.

This is my proposed framework for how a money-less society might prosper, there are still the details to be worked out of how it would exactly function as well as the path needed to get there. A benefit is I believe it could be implemented gradually (incrementally). We could glean ideas from initiatives such as free software foundations who have had a chance to see what works and what doesn't.

A good example here is perhaps the alternative to MS Windows 'Linux', which shares several of the aims stated in this post as well as a few methodologies. They have managed to produce a (complex) product which is in many ways comparable to Windows, given time I see no reason why they would not continue to excel and become the preferred OS.

Though we might reduce a 40hr working week down to a more relaxed 4hrs or so from which everyone benefits, we still all would need to voluntarily pull our weight. As no one would be being paid or under compulsion to do anything, there might be a temptation to freeload and if too many people did this too often, then the system would not continue as effectively. If we proved unable or unwilling to fend for ourselves then no doubt a more draconian system such as the one we currently inhabit might come along to all our costs, if we found 4hrs a week too much, we could end up doing 40 or 80hrs instead. It boils down to cooperation and not greed and recognition of the benefits/alternatives/consequences, - a system of self governance.

By doing away with money we all become rich.
By not seeking reward, we all gain in abundance.




"let every man make known what kind of government would command his respect and that will be one step toward obtaining it" - Henry David Thoreau


"Government by its very nature must govern. To govern is to dictate. All governments are dictatorships of one form or another. They may be one-man dictatorships, constitutional dictatorships, dictatorships in republican or democratic form, majority rule dictatorships, dictatorships by bureau or what have you. But the fact remains that to govern is to dictate." - Freedom or Government? by Harry Hoiles


The alternative to government is freedom. The individual who believes in freedom does not seek to govern others. He merely wants to govern himself. He is perfectly willing to let other people govern themselves also." - Freedom or Government? by Harry Hoiles


"Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have .... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases." - Thomas Jefferson


"Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is the history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of the limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it." - Woodrow Wilson


"It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government." - Thomas Paine


"Government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." -Abraham Lincoln: 'the Gettysburg Address' November 19, 1863


"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it." - Abraham Lincoln


"I heartily accept the motto, 'That government is best which governs least'; and I should like to see it acted upon more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe--'That government is best which governs not at all'; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have." - Henry David Thoreau - On The Duty of Civil Disobedience (1849)


"Corruptissima republicae, plurimae leges" - Tacitus


Last edited by Ta Seti on Thu Feb 22, 2007 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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navari
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:31 pm    Post subject: Re: A Future Worth Having? Reply with quote

Ta Seti wrote:
I am however quite struck on the idea of a Utopian Novel - this is another "finding truth in opposites" situation, they have their dystopic 'Brave New World', we have a lot better to offer the world.


Ta Seti, what about publishing the book 2084? How do you think that
will be received? I love the irony.
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Tonto



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:48 pm    Post subject: 2084 Reply with quote

2084 Now that is a good idea.
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navari
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:58 am    Post subject: Re: 2084 Reply with quote

Tonto wrote:
2084 Now that is a good idea.


Think about how we can flip that novel on its head. Just gotta
make the new version real.... believable.

We've got the talent right here in this forum to write it... collaboratively....
online. What a new paradigm of plurality....we're going to set the pluralistic
vision of the future by writing a novel using the same pluralistic techniques
we present in the novel.


Last edited by navari on Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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Ozregeneration



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 1:57 am    Post subject: Re: A Future Worth Having? Reply with quote

Ta Seti wrote:

FUTURE POSSIBLE
My vision for a future is one in which there is no money, this includes no tokens, no credits no vouchers - not even bartering, - nothing of the kind. My reasoning for this is as follows:

This idea is based on how a typical family operates and by attempting to extend the concept to a global family where we are all brothers and sisters (grassroots - ground-up style). After all, you wouldn't typically charge your family for services rendered nor would you charge a family member to make them a widget with the intention of it rapidly falling apart just so you could rip them off again: You would pride yourself in building something for 'them' that lasted and was of the highest quality you could achieve.


By doing away with money we all become rich.
By not seeking reward, we all gain In abundance.


Greetings Ta Seti,

Sounds good to me. In fact I've been thinking about similar ideas since reading Mary Elizabeth Croft's "How I clobbered ....." book a couple of years ago. People just doing what they love to do. As you say, there may be some jobs which are required to be done which may require some incentives. But then again, if everyone's time and imagination was freed up to explore all possibilities then I'm sure it wouldn't take long for solutions to manifest.

What I would also envisage would be people living using their intuition a lot more (which I believe is inevitable anyway). People would then realise that they were creating their reality, which is the result of imagination applied to choice and created by the mind.

What I like most about this type of approach is that in many ways it could be done straight away and along side the present system. People could just move in and out as required and be in the old society but not part of it. It would create a real flow of energy where people can choose when and when not to interact with it.

Now this does not necessarily follow along the lines that were originally envisaged on this thread but to me, the type of things being discussed were somewhat confrontational and restrictive in certain areas. We need to break out of the box as far as how we live our lives and interact with other people.

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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had discussions off this board with some anarcho-communist people talking about that style of society, where everyone receives everything they need and everyone contributes what they can. Things which did not get built or completed were apparently not needed. That was the answer to the question of uncompensated work.

However I cannot at this time stretch my mind this far. I think that most people demand compensation for work, for effort, at very least they demand compensation for unpleasant work. Would it be possible to trick people into finding unpleasant work pleasureable, so they would be willing to engage in it eagerly, or out of boredom or affinity?

I believe that this would require the evolution of the new "Communist Man" who revels in work and effort and strain to benefit others -- including the dirtiest, toughtest work. And this would need to be the vast majority of society, it seems. Or maybe not. Could MOST people be lazy asses, and 10% eager beavers, and 2% super-mascochistic eager beavers engaged in deeply-unpleasant work, or all people willingly taking turns at deeply unpleasant work and still have a functioning society? How could this be developed?

Given that the world needs levels of production arrived at by vast Industry and especially by Automated Industry, but also manual labor ... what I see happening in a non-compensation society is what happens in crowded regions when an economy stops working due to "economic conditions", whether accidental or induced. Some affinity-related production develops at the roots. People do informal barter, i.e. help one another. But mostly starvation and deprivation occur as the larger levels of productive activity grinds to a halt. Often this is followed by violence.

Many people like to volunteer for plushy work where there is compensation in fun or prestige, few like to volunteer for dirty, ugly, or backbreaking work. Some like Doctors sans Borders travel to help people but how many travel without compensation to dig wells and latrines? How many would do anything for no pay, besides sport fishing or watching TV or other forms of play? (I was engaged before in a dialogue about work vs. play. One conclusion was that this thing we call "work" consists of activity people are "partially engaged in" i.e. not enthusiastically and with pleasure, whereas people get "fully engaged" in "play", even if play involves a lot of work. For situations of best congruence (?) what is typically called "work" is so enjoyable it amounts to play for the individuals so engaged such that they would do the work without pay if their compensation-needs were otherwise met -- but I do not think this can ever be achieved universally.)

There are always some obsessive-complusives (usually annoying types) who would throw themselves into unpaid problem-solving and maintenance, clean freaks, whatnot. (I was picking up some random trash in a parking lot yesterday while on my way to my car, but I skipped the pile of beer bottles in the corner.) I think an insufficient percentage of people would participate in uncompensated labor, especially unpleasant uncompensated labor.

Now Schoenman recently mentioned that right now with the elimination of all the graft and waste that goes into military production in the U.S., including the Dept of Energy and their nukes, including Dept of State exporting arms, etc., and without the vast concentration of wealth (top 5000 people) owning to what amounts to sophisticated forms of "theft" backed up by force of violence leading to extraction of labor and resources of others, there already exists enough productive capacity to feed, house, and educate every American for free. I don't think he said "the world" but he I think he said "America", so "the world" would not require much more production, or little more distribution. This was not fleshed out as "a proposal" per se, but an idea of how much is being stolen by force.

Given these figures, it would seem within the realm of possibility for people to be able to *LIVE* for free, then *WORK* for additional compensation to acquire extra goods which are not necessities for living, fancy appliances, services, entertainment, etc. BLING. This would seem to be a fair balance. This would not require first changing Man or Society by force to a different type, or to force egalitarianism on all by threat of violence. This would still rely on desire and greed for MORE. It would simply mean that people desiring more stuff would persue productive means to acquire it.

Theft would diminish I think (not disappear 100%) if everyone had what they needed. Theft (including "legalized" theft) is mostly a byproduct of a false mentality of scarcity, even though it's often practiced by those least affected by scarcity, and many people who experience profound scarcity would never stoop to theft, either due to honor or due to empathy.

I don't think this would SOLVE EVERY PROBLEM, but I think it would bring the human race closer to perfection. For any anti-communists reading this in the future, I do not see this as promoting communism, but rather
a) modifying the current system of "hijacked communism for the few" to communism for the many (re. Chomsky discussing how the pigs' trough of Federal contracts is seen by Business as "capitalism")
b) outlawing various forms of sanctioned plunder by the IMF and other forms of economic hijacking of the weaker by the stronger
c) helping to implement sane Abundant Living globally, not as some frou-frou notion but as a very practical reality



(One "communist" sort of agenda which would probably be necessary would be birth-rate planning, population control, and the discouragement of birth-rates in excess of death rates. I doubt this would have to be enforced by some government edict, but I do think it's simply a Natural tendency that any animal population with access to unlimited resources tends towards unlimited multiplication. Man is not divorced from being an animal, nor should we be.

The vast rise in world population seems to be generally caused by a variety of archaic cultural artifacts which lead to a birth rate based on needs and scenarios which no longer exist, coupled with vast improvements in diet and advanced medical technology. Seeing no cause for population to plateau on it's own -- other than changes in mass culture on the topic of birth and children and large families -- other than a sense of suffocation in world populated like New York City or Calcutta -- it seems to make sense to me that since we are so willing to modify or defeat Nature in so many other areas including vigorously beating back death, then we should not shy away from addressing Nature in terms of birth rates as if this one topic is a sacred private concern beyond public interest. Nor do I think that poverty, starvation, and disease -- nor depleted uranium -- are proper methods of population control. I am not advocating forced public invasion of privacy, nor other harsh measures. I think we are creative enough to come up with useful measures to influence our collective viewpoint. This is already occurring -- most or many people no longer desire large families.)
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Ta Seti



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Re: A Future Worth Having? Reply with quote

Ta Seti, what about publishing the book 2084? How do you think that
will be received? I love the irony.[/quote]

Yup, 2084 certainly has potential although there are things out there close to it. It does have memorability and practically tells you what it is about straight off the bat, even better, it has a "You're trumped!" feeling to it. It might just work - we should pencil in the idea.

The main Dystopics are:
Brave New World - Aldous Huxley
1984 - George Orwell
Anthem - Ayn Rand

Perhaps we could learn from any existing Utopian works although I am not currently aware what is out there and applicable, if any. I'll be looking in to it. e.g.:

Great Utopian/Dystopian Novels
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Utopian-Dystopian-Novels/lm/3JUKVMUGCB17R

The book idea might come later on when we have a good all around appreciation of what we are aiming for (we need an excellent grip on our subject to make it work). Not sure how we would tackle it, we could try and modularise it somehow after storyboarding it ... let's see what else we need to do and how we get on with it. I wouldn't want us to overburden ourselves this early on. Nonetheless, it would be quite a prize.


By the way, G. Edward Griffin has a web site focussing on freedom: http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/
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RedMahna



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had to resort to wikipedia on various terminolgy for this thread... such as "liberty," "commune," "utopia," etc...
There is a book of interest, I'll try to find it for myself... This is what wiki says of it:
Quote:
Utopia (book)

Utopia is largely based on Plato's Republic. It is a perfect version of Republic wherein the beauties of society reign (eg: equalism and a general pacifist attitude), although its citizens are all ready to fight if need be. The evils of society, eg: poverty and misery, are all removed. It has few laws, no lawyers and rarely sends its citizens to war, but hires mercenaries from among its war-prone neighbors (these mercenaries were deliberately sent into dangerous situations in the hope that the more war-like populations of all surrounding countries will be weeded out, leaving peaceful peoples). The society encourages tolerance of all religions, but not of atheism, since the people believe that a man must fear some God, else he shall act evilly and their society will weaken. Some readers have chosen to accept this imaginary society as the realistic blueprint for a working nation, while others have postulated More intended nothing of the like. Some maintain the position that More's Utopia functions only on the level of a satire, a work intended to reveal more about England than about an idealistic society. This interpretation is bolstered by the title of the book and nation, and its apparent derivation from the Greek for "no place" and "good place": "Utopia" is a compound of the syllable eu, meaning good, and topos, meaning place. But the homonymous prefix ou, with the meaning "no," also resonates in the word: the perfectly "good place" is really "no place."


Anyway, as much as this kind of utopia may sound pleasant to some folks in and out of BFN, the idea of liberty, freedom of choice, personal desires, etc, may not all be inline with everyone else's kind of lifestyle.... on the planet, or on your own block, or even in your own family.
So then, what could the utopian-idea people do? Force it on the others?
Of course not.

I think history has given us at least a good handful of enlighted men and women, on the politico-religio-spiritual plane. Whether real or mythical, (and some were real, like MLK Jr, unless there's a Civil Rights Denial movement I don't know of), their message has always included "Know Thy Self," and portrayed the use of "Leading by example."

For me, and speaking only for myself, I find that personal struggle for the attainment of right thought and action is the solution, and where all good things begin. That is a start, but an enormous start that I believe cannot be skipped prior to bringing anyone else onboard. In all things.

Gary's quote:
Quote:
I don't think this would SOLVE EVERY PROBLEM, but I think it would bring the human race closer to perfection. For any anti-communists reading this in the future, I do not see this as promoting communism, but rather
a) modifying the current system of "hijacked communism for the few" to communism for the many (re. Chomsky discussing how the pigs' trough of Federal contracts is seen by Business as "capitalism")
b) outlawing various forms of sanctioned plunder by the IMF and other forms of economic hijacking of the weaker by the stronger
c) helping to implement sane Abundant Living globally, not as some frou-frou notion but as a very practical reality


This is much more practical, and even possible, I feel.
How? By becoming active and persuing public life through the normal political channels is one way. We had discussed on other threads that marches don't really do much these days. They probably don't when it comes to the current administration in Washington, DC, particularly.
But can we really discount the need for and the possibilities of joining local groups as the key to attracting other like-minded statesmen/ women?

Even if we get a top-ranking YouTube video out, a #1 hit song, or Oscar-winning movie about the way we ought to change the world, someone still has to implement this change somehow. I'm just thinking out loud, now... Thoughts of assasinated heros come to mind, unfortunately.

YouTube wouldn't be a bad idea. Perhaps a series of vids. How can we network around to make it as popular as Jesus Christ, (a Lennon factor of some sort)?

Back to the concept of joining political life... public service doesn't always start off corrupt. But I will say this, from experience with upper management in organizations that deal with vendors: Corruption starts with kickbacks in contracts, that's proven 100% to me. People entering politics have at least management exposure of this sort. While I first thought that the PTB are out to get us common folks, the truth is that they're the horror of even their own peers, considering their strong-arming and takeovers of other companies. And so I fear for the freshman of public life, unless a swarm of humane, thoughtful, fair-practicing people forge the way into political parties.

Sorry for the long-windedness...

Red

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Ormond



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
a vision we can take to people in answer to the [b]"blah blah, this system isn't perfect, but there's nothing better" - we all KNOW that's crap ~ Matt


That reminds me that I haven't been hearing people say that much lately. Kinda like I don't here "it's a free country" said either.

Yep. Even those who still cling to the system aren't so cocky about how great it is--which means the 'might makes right' and 'means justify the ends' system has already hit it's 'expiration date'.

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Hocus Locus



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When a state's laws begin to blur the distinction between thought and action (so-called 'thoughtcrime') it has lost its way.

Any renaissance of respect for the Constitution must begin with a full, transparent public investigation and hearings into the treatment of Citizen Padilla, who was denied access to the court system that is his right, authority for whose 'uncivil' incarceration leads directly up the chain of military command to its Commanders In Chief. No buck passing. As open and televised as OJ. All the birds, one stone.

His inability to be tried as a sane person is not an impediment to the original charges against him -- it is direct evidence in a new, completely separate crime of urgent and grave importance. How many Padillas must there be before those in jurisprudence wake up? Six million?

It could be argued that Government funded psyop agent provocateurs are a direct attack on the fundemental mechanism of Constitutional Freedom of Association. Sure, they may be free agents, private entities -- but to track them down and root them out I cannot think of a better use for the systems and procedures we have established to follow the trails of money laundering and terrorism funding.

There is also the right to encrypt. It needs to be sealed -- Hollywood is starting up with the "cannot do (some blatantly illegal communications intercept) because they're using a scrambler" thing again, as was done in the days when our man Clinton was pushing the escrow key scarecrow.

Quote:
To me, encryption is synonymous with free speech and privacy, in the strictist (and most sacred) constitutional sense. There is a sharp line that refuses to turn grey despite political confusion: the line that divides thought from action.

Freedom of speech is also freedom to encrypt. All the way. All the time. Period. Should I decide to do so.

This means I am defending YOUR right to plot my murder in encrypted correspondence to friends, or send encrypted love letters to my wife and car. If a deed crosses over to action (at least the murder one) you have crossed the line and must give up your freedom.

It has to be this way. In older not-so-quaint times certain statements against the Church could result in severe reprecussions, even if they appeared in "private" correspondence. While our noble Republic does not object to its name being used in vain (at least in theory) encryption allows us to take this principle and freeze it in place, for all time. What are they afraid of?

There are cases where it is argued that probable cause should be sufficient grounds for data-tapping. The Church had probable cause, the world is filled with infidels.

I do not believe for a minute that the Gov't would fail to make the esrcow system mandatory (eventually) should it be put into place, any more that I believed the Brady Bill people when they said that they had "achieved their victory." The escrow system and gun control are not things, they are currents travelling in a particular direction towards a purpose.

As regards the escrow system, I will continue to swim against THAT current. Only the outlaws will double-encrypt and defeat the LEAF mechanism; therefore only the outlaws will have privacy. The rest of us must then constantly worry about the integrity of the escrow agents and their system. And if the equivalent of World War II ever comes again, and we are the equivalent of Japanese Americans, look out.

Even if the world succeeds in putting down its weapons and the "well armed militia" no longer has them, that militia must continue to exist. Its weapons will be words, and only through secure (no escrow) and anonymous (no LEAF) "freedom of association" can these militias continue their vigilance.

~Hocus post, "Freedom to Encrypt" 15-Jan-1994 in the Compuserve Electronic Frontier Foundation SIG
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Ta Seti



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RedMahna wrote:

Anyway, as much as this kind of utopia may sound pleasant to some folks in and out of BFN, the idea of liberty, freedom of choice, personal desires, etc, may not all be inline with everyone else's kind of lifestyle.... on the planet, or on your own block, or even in your own family.
So then, what could the utopian-idea people do? Force it on the others?
Of course not.


I used the term 'utopia' as hopefully it might be a familiar term to some but it isn't critical, I only used it as a term of reference. I'm not sure why you would object to liberty/ freedom etc; I think perhaps I confused the issue by introducing thoughts of a utopia. The idea of freedom still stands by itself and hopefully you are okay with freedom, if not you are free to say what you find wrong with it. - I guess I should never have brought the 'utopia' word into the conversation.

There are many types of utopia, some written about, some yet to be imagined, utopia is anything we care to make it. As for using force, the idea is to create a better world for all, force shouldn't even enter in to the equation, otherwise it isn't a world created with everyone in mind and that everyone wants (ignoring Dick Cheney and other elites of course).

I shall attempt to detail below what we are trying to do although this is simply my take, others may well see things quite different and I have no desire to monopolise anything here. Perhaps others might care to comment at some point.

Apologies for being long winded but I had to settle for a compromise between a reasonable length reply and attempting to clarify the situation - I suspect I failed at both Smile


(My take on things +) Brainstorming
At the moment we are looking for ideas of what we all want (or don't want) from this world and how to best get there. It may be that there is some list of 'wants' everyone can agree upon and if so, that is something we can then establish as a goal and work towards. It is a large project and thus a standard approach is to break such a task down into smaller bite-sized pieces. The piece we are dealing with at the moment (as far as I can tell) is the 'BRAINSTORMING' piece.

A separate issue we are also discussing is how to make this entire process of creating a better world work so that what we want this world to be becomes a reality. (We must first create the vision before we can build it).

'Brainstorming' is where we simply come up with as many ideas as we can, it is really as simple as that for now. No need to worry how difficult it might be to achieve or even if it would really work (there are ways to make things work and we can look at that later on), we are simply looking for ideas. We can then take the best of ideas on to the next stage.

The sort of ideas we are looking for are ideas on what makes a better/perfect world. A 'world' by definition contains everything, so there is much to be discussed although of course we cannot go into every detail and neither is it necessary to do so, we are looking for an overall sort of picture. We are considering the world from many angles such as social, political, economic (my previous post mainly dealt with the economic structure but had implications for ‘social’, ‘political’ etc).

At this (brainstorming) stage we need as many ideas as we can get, a bit later we can discuss their merits, tweak them a bit if necessary and then take the best ideas forward. This will involve a fair bit of discussion where we discuss what we like or don't like about the ideas etc.

There are then many other stages (too numerous to mention) where to try to make our dreams a reality. The trick is we don't try to do too much at once, people should feel free to come up with as many ideas as they can think of, even if you think an idea wouldn't work - somebody else might look at it and find a way to make it work so the more ideas we can generate the better.

It is best to avoid any criticism of ideas at this stage or else people simply won't say anything for fear of having their idea shot down.

Admittedly it may be difficult to see from this how everything fits together and where we are going with this. I shall have to try and see if there is an easier way to describe a process we are all happy with.

The 'Book' Concept
... Imagine a book existed that detailed how life worked in 'your' ideal world. It would obviously have to go into quite some detail so that others could understand an average day and an entire life lived in your world. It becomes more complicated when there are several of us and we all have our own version of an ideal world, some have only an idea of certain things they would like to be different and yet others still have not even thought about it. All these different people with different ideas then have to come together somehow, discuss our wants and dislikes and then somehow create an image of a world that is suitable for all, not only all of us but for the entire world.

Of course this is not a small task and we have to find the best way to do this and be understood. We could all agree just to make a few small changes here and there, whilst this may be a five minute job, I think we would be missing the biggest opportunity in history.

What is at stake ...
The world has gone so far off course that it takes a "big idea" (to steal Bush Snr.'s words) to set it back on track, what is more - this is possibly the first and maybe only chance in history to actually do this. We realise we are not free, never have been free and that things if left alone will only get much worse. If all we do is tinker around the edges then it won't be long before we are back where we started and this time the elite will make sure they do not fail again and our one and only chance will be lost for all eternity.

For once we are the first people in history to see what is actually going on, to be able to identify the problems and actually fix it. We owe it to all our ancestors and future generations to at least try and to do our best, if we cannot fix everything then we can at least set the path so that others may continue.

Full Spectrum Liberty
FSL (Full Spectrum Liberty) seemed like a good starting place for discussion, it seemed fairly obvious that most people would want freedom (the more freedom the better), except perhaps the slave masters. We can now ask 'Is this what everyone wants and what does it mean to us?' - 'What does a world of liberty look like to you?'.

The 'Book' Concept (revisited)
It just may happen that if we can decide upon a world that everyone agrees upon, that it will be so great an idea to everyone that it will be unstoppable. This is a reason for considering a book; it is an excellent way to spread the idea to all four corners of the globe so that it can both readily understood and catch on.

RedMahna wrote:

For me, and speaking only for myself, I find that personal struggle for the attainment of right thought and action is the solution, and where all good things begin. That is a start, but an enormous start that I believe cannot be skipped prior to bringing anyone else onboard. In all things.


Great, you're saying what you want to see in your ideal world and that is what this stage of the game is all about, we need to know what we all want from this planet so we can act on it and hopefully make the right changes.

Perhaps you would care to expand upon what you want to see in our future planet. Chances are that whatever you want, millions of other people also want so you would be speaking for them also.
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