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will



Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:09 pm    Post subject: FSL - Economic Factors relating to Societal Class Reply with quote

Much like Tom Hayden's discussion some years ago on "economic democracy", I believe he called it, - my liberty - or my ability to freely mobilize myself within that national or global community (of which I am a integral part) is somewhat dependent on my being equitably compensated for the value I generate. To the extent that I am not fully compensated for the value I bring, I am left with fewer resources and hence a lesser ability to maneuver within this economic system.

The value I create can be viewed in two ways. First, I trade within the economy or system and derive value for myself from my labor and know-how. Second, I generate value as a participant in that larger system of divided labor and know-how. Simple put, were it not for this larger design of divided know-how, stored know-how, and applied know-how the efficiencies of our modern civilization would not exist. Further, without our collective participation the wealth and production generated by that larger economic system would not be generated.

Toward that end, the value generated in a "division of labor" or “division of know-how" system is not caused solely by "ownership", but rather by a combination of "ownership" and the system design itself. My point here is that the economic system of divided labor and know-how is itself the machine deserving of substantial credit and compensation for the wealth and value generated by a society. This is not a political statement. It’s essentially an engineering observation. The division of labor design or system “viewed as a whole” is the principal engine responsible for generating value. “Ownership” utilizes the know-how built by the system and stored in the system. In all fairness, when a machine or system is used to generate value that portion of the value caused by the machine should be paid to the machine, and equitably divided by those components or participants in the machine.

In our current system "ownership" utilizes the assets of the division of labor/know-how system to cause production and at times profits. However, that wealth is not appropriately shared with the system that makes “ownership’s” profits possible. Further, “ownership’s” position in the “game” is enhanced as the wealth held by “ownership” enhances its’ ability to maneuver in the system and influence outcomes within the system.

If the role played by the participants in the division of labor/know-how equation was acknowledged and appropriately compensated the distribution of wealth would be more equitable, and hence the societal mobility and influence of the non-ownership classes would more greatly impact on the societal outcomes realized. This then, in my judgment, would, or would have, generate a differently designed civic structure.
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Aniam



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 40

PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

navari wrote:
I believe one of the major goals of FSL is simply to
facilitate and kick off this process of "one mind creating, another mind
creating, another mind creating, and all of these minds then basing their
creations on each other’s creations."

Am I way off base here?


No, you are not off base at all. What you perceive as a major goal of FSL is something people have tried for millenia. The insurmountable hurdle has been the fact that people's creations, no matter how benevelant their intentions, are all geared ultimately toward their own self-preservation. The powers that be are well aware of this, and as long as this is the case, they will always maintain their power over the masses. Even their apparent failures are created to serve their purposes.
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Ta Seti



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 53
Location: Brighton, UK

PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vatican/Papacy stuff
My only comment here is that I am currently doing a little historical research and the Vatican insists on cropping up repeatedly. I'm not too sure what the 'assassins' bit is all about as yet, unless it is the Jesuit related stuff, I’ve not gone into it.

As for the Vatican (main), they have been present in one form or another since at least the fourth century and in all likelihood can be traced back still further. Being an organisation that has managed to exist for so long, they make a useful reference to other events taking place, being that in some respects they act as a barometer whereby 'outside' effects can be detected via their effect on the Vatican.

The Vatican in this regard acts something like a tree where you can see if they have had good or a bad year, in fact you get rather more detail. I see the Vatican as a continuous thread throughout two millennia and thus a useful reference point.

A major article on this I would direct anyone interested to is:
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/Papacy1.html
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/articles/Papacy2.html
(The final Part 3 is still pending)

This is a remarkably revealing history which shows both the power and the corruption that have been a constant theme throughout their reign. It is truly a breathtaking account of information not generally available. It is a long read but action packed.

The information presented is largely based on fairly recently released (papal) documents which should help ascertain its authenticity, the article itself covers tremendous ground, I considered pasting a quote or two but there really is too much to choose from. It puts the Vatican in an entirely different light but to comment much more on it would probably be better done in a different thread.


FSL
I can see we all have something to bring to the table, whether that be from our own research or some very well considered thoughts following up on our own personal experiences and observations. It's good to know that there is a band of people all sharing a common dream.

I am currently reviewing what many of us have been sharing in this thread, along with the given links. One in particular I will comment upon (having now read the booklet in question), is the return of R. Buckminster Fuller (RBF), courtesy of just0 Smile

I wasn't aware RBF had this side to him - so, many thanks for sharing, I can see from the information you supplied that a common misconception amongst others is that RBF somehow failed in that he either never made money or that his ideas haven't yet taken off. They are of course applying the wrong criteria as this was not necessarily his objective.

What RBF did was to analyse problems and come up with the 'universal' principles required to solve them, he then applied those principles using the current technology and resources matched to the requirements of the current day problems. Hence he may have designed a car in 1933 and many might think we have moved on in technology since then however it is the principles he devised that remain as valid today as they ever were (hence a modern car could today be made following the same design ideas and guiding principles). It seems BF has indeed left us a rich and timeless legacy.

I'm enjoying getting to grips with how he conceptualises problems, his abilities at pattern recognition and his approach to problem solving. This in itself is a veritable treasure trove.

It most certainly would be great to be able to incorporate RBF's vision into the new reality. It is true we have insights that simply weren't available during his sojourn with us here on Spaceship Earth, nonetheless I am sure his 57yrs of dedication and selfless contribution will help light our way as we travel ever onward to our true destiny.

Wu Li
To select just one of the things you have mentioned:

"This idea that if something doesn’t seem right or if something doesn’t feel right it probably is not, this is so crucial."

It may sound simple and obvious but I agree it is indeed crucial and worth frequent repeating, it is all too easy to get too acclimatised to the madness of this matrix. Yours is a phrase that helps keep things in check and in perspective.

dilbert_g
mentions the issue of 'integrity'. I like to think that this is both our natural state as well as being the method by which we can achieve the most. Hopefully with at least one of those holding valid we can find our way.


MEDICAL STUFF
As Fintan has brought up the question of how this might apply within the medical field, I thought I might gaze into my crystal ball and attempt to discern any recognisable shapes Smile

I cannot promise to be accurate (it was a foggy day) however I am sure there are gains to be made within this field. Of course the current (medical) situation requires a number of highly trained individuals who also need to keep their skills in practice and this may impact on any ability to take things somewhat easier, depending what the future holds. A worse case scenario is that nothing changes for the better but I cannot see this being the case.

This is in my estimation, the likely changes and areas that will be affected. One thing to keep in mind though is that even a small change in habits et al can bring about a much greater resultant change (the butterfly effect), having consequences that perpetuate throughout the system and we are contemplating rather a lot of major changes.

A certain amount of the medical wellness requirements would resolve themselves for the following reasons:

Without the incentive to profit from illness there would be little reason to create and harvest illnesses (I'm sure many of us accept this to be the reality, considering the effects of MSG, Aspartame, and Fluoride etc).

I am a believer in the old saying "Food is medicine, medicine is food". I also find it an interesting statistic (from memory) that people currently spend approx four times the amount on medical care as they do on food, whereas decent food may have saved them on medical bills as well as from the trauma. Under the new situation, people would have healthier and more knowledgeable diets and the various poisons such as MSG, Aspartame, Fluoride, and Genetically Modified Organisms (GM) would be removed from foodstuffs.

I am yet to consider precisely how the farming industry might pan out but by eliminating the problems of intensive farming we would also be doing away with eating diseased carcasses; low-quality foodstuffs that are pumped full of (immune suppressing) anti-biotics, flavour enhancers etc.

In the new knowledge society, people would have good access to information on maintaining a healthy lifestyle. Also a decrease in ‘dumbing down’ would result in people far more capable of looking after their selves.

Situations that create illness such as stress, pollution and bad diet would be reduced, there would be more leisure time to pursue physical fitness activities.

There would be a rise in available cures for various ailments (including liberation of traditional health care information) and a reduction in manmade diseases.

One such example that springs to mind is the closely kept secret of an AIDS cure:
Patent 5,676,977
"Method of curing AIDS with tetrasilver tetroxide molecular crystal devices" - United States Patent - 5,676,977
Antelman - October 14, 1997

From my understanding you cannot obtain patents without proving they work and this one has been available since 1997. One person who also claims to have used it as a cure is Dr. Boyd Graves

There is also a history of the UN/WHO spreading diseases via vaccinations (and 'accidentally' sterilising women en masse etc), this of course would stop.

I am yet to consider in detail such factors as: - 'Would people voluntarily spend multiple years training as a medic?' - however this may not be necessary. As we approached our ideal through incrementalism (as opposed to a quantum leap (except where thoroughly game-planned)) and perhaps even a little trial and error, we may well find that the equations of supply and demand vary sufficiently to counter any such concerns and also that technology would somehow be incorporated. It is our collective vision that would keep us on track by providing our steering course.

It might be worth considering (if records are to be believed) that several thousands of years ago they were apparently performing brain & eye surgery and a vast range of other medical wonders: Imhotep was regarded as 'The Father of Medicine' approx 3,000 BC; some 2,500 yrs before either Hypocrites or even Thales were born. I remember being told at school that we have lost all the ancient ways of natural treatments using herbs, spices, various plants and even general/exotic foodstuffs but I am constantly discovering that this knowledge by and large still exists and is even making a comeback.

The demand for dentists will possibly reduce somewhat if what I hear about healthy alternatives is true (e.g. stevia). Formerly we consumed perhaps 1% the amount of sugar.

Pollution levels would likely decrease significantly. If we can come up with an alternative to carbon fuels such as petrol and diesel this should eliminate smog completely. I'm optimistic we can find not only a clean source of energy but also an infinite energy source available directly to every household (de-centralised), unmetered - if this proves correct then this marks a revolution in itself. There are numerous claims for this already being in existence such as engines that run on water to name but one.

Personally speaking, I would like to see a shift away from the culture where the elderly and infirm are warehoused in don't-care homes to where they would be looked after by their own families. This would hopefully be far more achievable and desirable with the major freeing up of our time.

Overall, I suspect we would be able to reduce the need for doctors and surgeons (and intensive surgery) whilst finding ways to simplify the task although to what degree remains uncertain. I also see us remaining healthier for longer (favouring prevention over cure). We would see a major reduction in the current popular illnesses such as cancers, various forms of mad bovine disease, those on the autistic spectrum and a whole host of others, particularly all the new and exciting illnesses that have cropped up only in the last century.
----------------------------------------------

Finally, thanks again to all of us for having enough vision, initiative, drive, integrity, dedication and bravery to even attempt to bring this all together and for all the continuing contributions which provide us all with the means to move onward and upwards. I’m also hoping that people will feel free to share any potential visions and ideas they may have regardless, even if they think they need some tweaking, this will then give us the richest assortment of ideas possible for an evolved planet and help stop us overlooking any possibilities.




"To be GOVERNED is to be watched, inspected, spied upon, directed, law-driven, numbered, regulated, enrolled, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, checked, estimated, valued, censured, commanded, by creatures who have neither the right nor the wisdom nor the virtue to do so.

To be GOVERNED is to be at every operation, at every transaction noted, registered, counted, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, prevented, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished.

It is, under pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, drilled, fleeced, exploited, monopolized, extorted from, squeezed, hoaxed, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, vilified, harassed, hunted down, abused, clubbed, disarmed, bound, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, derided, outraged, dishonored. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality"


Pierre Joseph Proudhon,
General Idea of the Revolution in the Nineteenth Century
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navari
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am interested to know if folks on the forum would be willing to
collaborate on creating short chapters of an FSL book – when finished will
become a novel that will envision a world where individuals across the
globe are actively moving into an FSL paradigm. What would their lives be
like? How might society around them look? A real exploration in a
fictitious world that we are actively moving toward in 2084. I'm not after
utopia here, and I don't think we'll even be close to utopia by 2084. But,
what if we at this forum are on the bleeding edge of a trend of
enlightenment that is about to spread around the globe, or is already
happening and we don't realize it? What if when we look back from 2084
we see that this time represented the initial steps toward breaking of the
chains of the institutions that the elites have established? If we are
progressing down this road now, then how far will we have progressed by
2084? It is this slice in time that I'd like to try and portray, with
appropriate historical perspective mixed in.

IF we were to analyze and review this future world, what might be the
relevant societal elements that we'd inspect and write about? It is these
elements that I think we can break into bit size pieces, pieces that can
each be initiated through its own unique thread here on B4N. So for
example, we may start a FSL thread on the “Money Supply” to discuss how
this part of our society functions in 2084, and how we transitioned from
the money monopoly. We could have a thread on “Big Pharma” which
shows how society learned that the pharmaceutical industry was too
important to be in the hands of a few, therefore, the industry is being
disaggregated into a global co-operative…... etc …etc.

So, in short, I’m taking an informal poll to determine the level of interest in
creating a number of threads that each represent a societal issue that we
agree to address. These threads will exist solely to discuss our desired
migration for the societal topic, not to critique the existing societal
framework. So, first, please let me know your interest in participating.
Second, if you are interested in participating, please provide a brief list of
societal issues that you would like to see addressed.
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Nat



Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 840
Location: minime-rica

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey Steve, interested in helping if i can, i need to go through the above again at an earlier time of day though !
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Ormond



Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 1556
Location: Belly of the Beast, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Navari, I might like to focus on the subject of public consensus emerging despite the Full Spectrum Dominance paradigm of division.

As I mentioned on the FSL broadcast, my primary 'work' for the last few years has focused on that with the people I see face to face every day.
I saw that we are not the polarized people of different species that a department of psyops conditions and encourages. Whatever political party or ideology people are clinging to, most Americans are really on the same page in terms of wanting a safe, stable society. It's just that minds have been messed with as to how that can be realized.

So I'll post something of a 'breakthrough' that my Republican friend has been making here. Got this today, an analysis of the Global situation which is free of the official 'talking point' rhetoric, but his own direct observation and analysis.

This is what I mean by saying that the FSD ops are losing their grip on minds.

Quote:
My latest thing is that the party system is nothing more than a Red Herring – a combination of a distraction to keep us from focusing on the real issues and pointing our fingers at each other rather than the real bad guys, and a convenient way of choosing “slates” for elections. Nothing more (although that’s a lot).

The actual parties are The People and The Government (or at least they should be).

I have this matrix of analysis I invented, that’s in layers of importance:

The lowest layer is the Party System. It’s based on aligning with others for one reason or another. For some, it’s clearly and blessedly ideological; for others, it’s a matter of community (Dad was a Dem, all my neighbors are Dems, I don’t really understand all this crap, so I’m a Dem, too). There are other reasons for party alignment, as well, none of which are particularly important.

The second layer is the Ideological Matrix, defined more accurately as the dynamic tension between liberal and conservative. Take out the enormous power at stake and the political implications, and analyze issues from the practical aspects of the liberal and conservative viewpoints – in other words, how to spend the money for the most good – and you have a legitimate debate. On a global level, there are other Ideological Matrices – religious, communist vs. fascist, etc.

The third layer is Government. Within government, ideologues of many stripes and partisans from both sides of the aisle battle each other for whatever power they can get their hands on, which is actually surprisingly limited, considering the power they have over our lives. The party system layer exploits the ideology matrix to forge alliances designed to help politicians achieve and retain power. Government is a vendor to the top level.

The top level is the Power Matrix. It is inhabited by those who actually manage governments for their own ends. Those are people like Strong, the Clintons, Gore, Cheney and Bush, Rupert Murdoch, the Rockefellers, etc. It also includes the heads and investors of these giant corporations, for whom nations have lost their significance (again, nations are now just vendors to a greater customer). The UN is one of their favorite playgrounds, but trust me when I tell you, it is NOT the Source. It is just another tool, a sort of clearing house where the services and assets of vendor nations are brokered and massaged for the benefit of the Powerful. Incidentally, the QUANTITY of power one possesses is not the determinant of one’s ability to play in the Power Matrix. The Power Matrix is used whenever one exploits nations without an actual ideological motivation for the purpose of furthering one’s own Power. Gore is an example of someone who is not really as powerful as, say, Maurice Strong or the Rockefellers, but has been able to wield nations within the Power Matrix to feather his own nest. He may end up that powerful someday, but he is evidence that the Power Matrix is fluid. Another thing is that those in the Power Matrix are no more cohesive or aligned than those in any of the other matrices. They are all trafficking in the Matrix for their own purposes, but smart enough not to openly challenge each other if it means risking exposing their agendas.


Not bad. Lots of room for common ground there.

_________________
The anticipated never happens. The unexpected constantly occurs
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kathy



Joined: 20 Jan 2006
Posts: 728
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that in any planning for change young people have to be involved in decisions as they are the future.

Education is an area I am interested in. Having raised three children and witnessing how the educational system is more about discipline than encouragement of individuality and creativity.

So I would like to participate in the exercise if I may.
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obeylittle



Joined: 10 Sep 2006
Posts: 442
Location: Middle o' Mitten, Michigan Corp. division of United States of America Corp. division of Global Corp.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the product of a totally different analytical perspective. My disclaimer: It is only my perspective based upon my relationship to my natural environment, my observations from life experiences, natural and technical interests that I study and so on. This is a personal account so we may take what we value and leave the rest... or dismiss all of it if it proves irrelevant to us.

I live in the woods on a river bank and between two rivers flowing eastward. This is a narrow land area on high ground above two narrow and shallow river flood plains, averaging about 3/4 of a mile wide at this point about 1 3/4 miles upstream of their convergence. This is my deceased grandfather's homeland, passed down to family generations on the banks of the Little Salt River, Midland County MI. The larger Chippewa River flows by to the north of our land.

The local ecosystem here is very robust and ever changing. It is constantly adapting to changing land forms, the local natural drainages into the rivers, the emergence, disappearance; and oftentimes reemergence of plant species, diverse wild animal populations etc. Its a fast-paced, very dynamic ecosystem not unlike the remainder of this northern geologic area water wonderland. I've been here for most of my life and I love it here... hell I have a small creek flowing by and then dumping into the Little Salt below, less than 20 feet from my bedroom window. How freakin' cool is that?

So I'm a river rat with a room with a naturally biased view. Laughing

I see all life from a natural competitive viability point of view; as solely a product of nature and natural forces. All life being subject to the natural.

When natural forces change the environment of a species to a point where that species is not competitive anymore, that species either must adapt to the changing environment or it ceases to exist. A competitor then flourishes.

Where the selective breeding of a species occurs irrespective of the natural (A note to Racists: you are in the wrong forum), adaptability to diversity and robust changing eco is also lost. The species is then no longer a viable one.

My point is that we must adapt to life and liberty with a nature-influenced strategy. We must march toward (and wholeheartedly embrace) being a diverse and competitive species. We must first, foremost and always be viable. Or perish. By understanding nature first, applying natural principles to human life and liberty, then we may flourish under its guidance and by its ultimate rules of force.

From my room with a view on this planet, I see an elite human subspecies that have/are breeding themselves out of a viable natural existence. I see an elite that through countless centuries of evolving as the power and control, and in so living that way have thus denied themselves a natural evolution close to nature. This elite subspecies cannot adapt nor compete anymore. This is a profound view but I now see them marked for immediate extinction. Consider that!

Further, I view the acceleration of all of the elite dominance tactics that we have been experiencing this past half century (in my lifetime here anyway) a direct result of their fading natural competitive viability as human beings. I think many of them know of their impending doom too. Nature is showing them the exit door!

So what we are experiencing here, everything we discuss here, boils down to this simplest natural explanation. The elites only hope for survival in the very near future rests squarely upon the strength of our backs. As controlled and obedient slaves hopefully carrying them onward for just a few more futile years... Plug that into your B4N analysis'!

Should we choose to obey them, we will perish alongside them.

Not viable.

Not competitive.

Not gonna happen to me.

We can't reverse their fatal geneology flaws nor crash-course educate them in adapting to nature at this late hour in their reign. We must now move forward without them, however unfortunate.

It is a personal and individual choice. But it is our only chance for survival in this accelerating evolutionary cycle we are going through now that we make more choices together. We must.

Full Spectrum Liberty must not be viewed as a counter to Full Spectrum Dominance. To approach our future from the present vantage of our controlled and enslaved past is wrong. We will fail coming from that direction. We must instead embrace and obey nature and natural forces. We must co-create as one with it, or become none.

The human family structure is pretty compatible with nature still to this day and so it is a solid footing to start building a natural future upon. From this tiny room... its all I got right now but I'm sure its going to be enough to enable a symbiotic coexistence with the abundance evolving just outside my window.

My immediate interest is learning more about how to grow more food organically from naturally evolved heirloom seeds and becoming a neighborhood seed-saver; so I can help get my neighbors off the Monsanto GMO sterile/killer seeds. What in the sam hell are my people thinking when they buy sterile and subsequent generations, killer seeds anyway?

I am also reading up on survival skills, tool making and practicing several methods of making a fire without matches. This may all sound a bit over the top or reactive to many of you here... but I'm a healthy SOB and I'm having fun living free of corporate consumerism and shitty, enslaving products. I'm less the victim and more the beneficiary than you know.

Make it what you take of it... Razz and leave something for the next person to figure out...

------------
Water is the only thing that will level with me.
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Dale
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

obeylittle:
Quote:
The local ecosystem here is very robust and ever changing. It is constantly adapting to changing land forms, the local natural drainages into the rivers, the emergence, disappearance; and oftentimes reemergence of plant species, diverse wild animal populations etc. Its a fast-paced, very dynamic ecosystem not unlike the remainder of this northern geologic area water wonderland. I've been here for most of my life and I love it here... hell I have a small creek flowing by and then dumping into the Little Salt below, less than 20 feet from my bedroom window. How freakin' cool is that?


Too freakin' cool!!! I'm gonna have to stop reading these Forums because I just get overwhelmed with envy when I read details of people's lives. I mean, where I live is beautiful, so why do I get jealous when I read stuff like that?!?!?! It just totally distracted me and now I'll have to read the rest of your post again to be able to provide a serious comment! Very Happy (I think it's the word 'creek' that did it! I live very close to a beck, but that doesn't conjure up the same feeling as 'creek'!!!!)
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Ta Seti



Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 53
Location: Brighton, UK

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hiyas Navari,
I'm mainly throwing some ideas and suggestions around in response to your post so no need to take this post too seriously...

Not sure I have the wherwithal to write a passage in a novel nor the material at the moment but I'm willing to at least consider it. I think you are suggesting an initial intermediary stage which I am probably fine with. What might make things easier is if we could gather as much input from others as possible regarding their desires for a future, e.g. what they would like to see and what they would like to see gone (perhaps you have already taken this into consideration).

I'd like to see what concerns people the most in this regard. A copious (and prolonged/ open ended?) brainstorming session would certainly facilitate this, provide a lot of potential material for a book and help make it a truly collaborative idea and reflective of all our wishes.

I see you have already set up a thread for this, FSL: Developing Core Values. Perhaps if we put out a request for contributions or somehow increase the response rate (maybe put out an advert of some sort). Speaking for myself, I would gain much inspiration from a rich pool of brainstormed ideas (again I think you are already suggesting this but not sure...), we could then weave these ideas into the fabric of the book as appropriate.

Perhaps if we could make it easier to suggest ideas, e.g. maybe set up a comments board where people could come and go and add comments without having to be registered and also see others' suggestions. Perhaps also if we could precede this by laying out the exact requirements (advert?) we are looking for in a brainstorming exercise, similar to what you have set out in your above post and elsewhere except perhaps we could expand a bit on it - Others have also made comments on this so we might be able to incorporate those also.

I'm not quite sure what you have in mind at present, I am still at the stage where I would like to take some time researching and reflecting upon what others have said in this thread, following up on material suggested and maybe even read a couple of utopian novels and see what other work there is out there along the lines we are pursuing, in order to get the best possible start for such an exercise.

I feel it worthwhile to pace ourselves on this and maintain the highest quality levels but we all have our different approaches and so I speak only for myself here. It is probably also important to maintain the sense of progress and thus we might want to consider targets and dates (I'm not really that concerned about deadlines at present, just throwing the idea out there).

I see it an advantage to make the most of the brainstorming stage although of course there is probably no reason we couldn't start to build sections of a book (via the forum as you suggest?) to help illustrate where we are going (or perhaps give the project a little more structure), and thereby drum up more support.

By focussing on the brainstorming we can use it as an opportunity to entice others who have wished for similar, by getting them to contribute. This also gives them an interest and a stake in the project from the outset - it increases involvement and helps spread the word - a win all round.

By asking a wider audience for their ideas of what they would like to see in their ideal world, we would be incorporating many more peoples' wishes and thus improves our success rate. We could direct such people either to the forum or to a separate 'Comments Board' where no membership is required and the process is all relatively painless, all comments would be visible to all contributors: Those wishing to make a more involved contribution would of course be free to join the Forum.

I believe we are working on an idea whose time has come. What I have seen/heard from other groups does suggest they all want a better world and are in several respects in tune with our thinking. I am sure with the right motivation they could be persuaded to get involved.

Further, whatever we do come up with, our main competition is the global elite who have nothing whatsoever to offer the world except lies, death and destruction - so much for competition: I'm sure when the 6 Billion inhabitants vote with their feet, we will come out tops. So, if we can tap these brains and gain their support, we will increase our strength no end at the outset.

As I say above, I am not making any stipulations, I'm merely commenting on things as I see them, it is more than possible I haven't understood something or other in my haste to respond.

You asked for areas we would like to consider working on; At present I have no idea and am fairly flexible, seeing some brainstormed ideas might well trigger some inspiration in me, otherwise I am happy to get involved wherever there is the demand although saying that, I may well think of something as time progresses.
-------------------------------

I am in accord with obeylittle who reasons for us adopting a system in balance/harmony with nature. Also that there would be an element of competition although the form this might take remains to be seen (I'm sure this would make the basis of an interesting discussion at some point).

There was much that occurred in ancient (and modern) times/societies that sought to work in harmony with the planet, - to work with the land as opposed to 'against' it. There is also the issue of how we evolve as a species, would we provide an equal opportunity to all or would there be inherent biases - it's a big question which we needn't necessarily address at this instant but which no doubt will crop up at some point. - So we have here potentially two opposites - harmony v competition, (or put another way) Equality v advantage.

Regarding a 'survival of the fittest (SotF)' environment (I know nobody has as yet suggested this), I'm considering this whole thing (SotF) and whether it is an accurate reflection of life on this planet regarding mankind. As for the current world situation, I see it hasn't been SotF (strictly speaking) for some time. For centuries the church massacred non-believers thus making those with a particular religious belief the apparent fittest to survive, there have also been other interventions such as war or slavery which altered the gene pool and today the fittest are often those who remain dumbed down and conformist enough to fit in without rocking the boat.

Those at the top of the tree today (elites) likely could not fend for themselves and exist mainly as parasites on the backs of others - it seems their chief skills include a 1,000 different ways to wage covert war and pillage/plunder.

The typical computer nerd was often regarded as having little value until the computer came along when they quickly rose towards the top.

I guess in all these examples/instances it has been the few (elite) who have determined the successful criteria for the survival of the populace. In some ways this could be regarded as a mimic of nature (albeit one that could lead to our very extinction) and in others a violation of it. I'm sure the opportunity to discuss this and many other issues will crop up again and I look forward to it.
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truthseeker



Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Posts: 177
Location: NW U.S.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
– R. Buckminster Fuller, 1895-1983.


J Harmon Grahn has published some fascinating material relative to your effort, Navari. The following excerpt from his piece "The Tribal Ideal" may be found here: http://harmonhouse.net/fdl/friends015.html#memes

Quote:
The strategy of adopting the "tribal ideal," or something like it, as a means "keeping the peace" without resorting to civilization, amounts to replacing old memes with new ones; such as:

* Our way is the only right way to live, and all people should live as we do.
...may be replaced by
There is no one right way to live, or to do anything; therefore, do whatever you like; and if you value peace, allow all others the same liberty.

* Civilization is the greatest and final achievement of humanity.
...may be replaced by
There is no final, highest, or greatest achievement for anything, because life is an unending spiral of becomiong.

* Civilization must not be lost or abandoned under any circumstances.
...may be replaced by
There is nothing that may not be abandoned, if it is found not to work.

* Humanity was destined from our earliest beginnings to create civilization.
...may be replaced by
Nothing has ever been destined, beyond that we create what we choose, and we live (or die) with the consequences.

* The earth was created for humanity, and humanity was created to conquer and rule the earth.
...may be replaced by
Nothing that exists is any more important or wonderful than anything else that exists. The least and the greatest are alike sacred.

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Ozregeneration



Joined: 23 Jan 2006
Posts: 485
Location: Big Island Down Under

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Greetings,

obeylittle, that sounds like a beautiful place where you live. I'd love to come for a visit if I ever make it over your way. Very Happy

Ta Seti, I like the idea of a (non-member) comments board as it hopefully would lead to a greater variety of input. Obviously you'll get some wacko comments passing through, but even if that was the case I think it is still well worth considering.

Truthseeker, I like what I read there from J Harmon Grahn, I think I'll have to read a bit more by this author to also get a feel for what is out there already. Also I love the Fuller quote
Quote:
You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.
– R. Buckminster Fuller, 1895-1983.

If I had my way I would make that the catchcry for FSL.

Navari, I guess I should apologise for grinding the Core Values thread to a grinding halt (I seem to have a habit of doing that sometimes) after my post. Embarassed I would love to contribute where I can. The thing is I'm not sure if my interests would fit into the type of 'book' that you envisage. My interests lie not so much in the type of 'society' that is created (though I obviously have my wishes and desires) but more in the process of how people reach it. As can be seen by what is said in a post from tonton_amca the world has been evolving in a consciousness of fear for quite some time now, and more than likely for thousands of years. So the only way I see a truly u topic society being created, where people are free to do whatever their heart desires, will be when people begin choosing from a consciousness of free choice.

So if the general consensus was that an exploration of this type would add value to you book then I would gladly explore the topic. If not I will probably do so outside of the FSL umbrella anyway. Very Happy Either way suites me.

Cheers

Oz

_________________
Choices For Your Soul
http://www.choicesforyoursoul.com/
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