FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Register   Profile   Log in to check your private messages   Log in 
Uncovered: The Rat's Nest of 9/11
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 13, 14, 15 ... 40, 41, 42  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Next Level Forum Index -> General Discussion
  ::  Previous topic :: Next topic  
Author Message
moylan



Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I might stick my oar in: I think Fintan's analysis is fundamentally sound. You ask why it is a question of shills taking the risk of running various conspiracy theories about 9-11, when this could bring down their entire house of cards.

Well first off, these people are smart, and second, they have a lot of experience in managing perception. Fighting wars these days is 10% actual bombing, shooting, etc., but 90% disinformation. I hope you would not be prepared to ask whether much of the so-called "left" has made it its business to collaborate with the State (as there really is only one State in the world which counts for anything): the Gladio operation was not only about running right-wing death squads, but also about creating a phantom "resistance" to divert people's energies, confuse their thinking, split them into factions, so that half the elites' work was already done. The point of the "organised left" as officially manifested in trade unions and charities is to prevent people from joining the dots, from thinking politically, and so to keep them confused, afraid, and powerless. A common slogan in certain "Western democracies" these days is "It's going to happen anyway; there's nothing you can do." It's no mistake that the so-called left subscribes to this defeatism, because their propaganda is, covertly but solidly, and in varying degrees, based on the presuppositions officially laid out by the ruling elites. It's the "consensus" that political types keep telling us is so desirable. And for all their noise and bull****, the official left is concerned, above all else, with keeping the State intact.

The same goes for 9-11. Those responsible weren't waiting around twiddling their thumbs hoping no one would work out that buildings don't just fall down because of fire. They had their intelligence operatives ready with their briefs, and when websites started appearing questioning the official story, the intelligence agents jumped aboard. Their method is not to insist on the official line and construct arguments to prove it is plausible, but to construct a sophisticated distraction to protect the real culprits, and hide the real explanations.

So that is how some of the loudest and most insistent voices "questioning" the 9-11 story can be on the other side. The method is to encourage people to concentrate on details, distract them from what matters, namely why. Everyone who is honest with themselves knows buildings can't be brought down by airlines hijacked by boxcutter-wielding terrorists with a few weeks' training in flight simulators: so why do the fakes keep going on about how impossible it is?
Because it sounds good, because you've always wanted to be told that Kennedy wasn't shot by a man who couldn't even hold a rifle straight; but analysis of the reasons, the context, the structure of the plan? No chance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moylan wrote:


So that is how some of the loudest and most insistent voices "questioning" the 9-11 story can be on the other side. The method is to encourage people to concentrate on details, distract them from what matters, namely why. Everyone who is honest with themselves knows buildings can't be brought down by airlines hijacked by boxcutter-wielding terrorists with a few weeks' training in flight simulators: so why do the fakes keep going on about how impossible it is?
Because it sounds good, because you've always wanted to be told that Kennedy wasn't shot by a man who couldn't even hold a rifle straight; but analysis of the reasons, the context, the structure of the plan? No chance.


Nice.
*applause*

Well said. I'd have to say I agree. Using certain elements of the truth as a distraction. Very 'True Lies'.

And you didn't even have to use the word 'steamy.' Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
hawkwind



Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 727

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 6:50 pm    Post subject: Whats in a word? Reply with quote

Sorry jerry but the word is still accurate. "Steamy" is the best way to describe the vaporous by-product of most "alternative" media arguments, used as proof of concept. And I do not see a point in the future where people acknowledge the "truth as lies". If you were raised in any form of religious environment, only one side of the paradigm uses "truth and lies" interchangeably and he isn't on the so-called "good" side of "truth, justice, and the American way" ... bla, bla, bla.

Good points though ...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rumpl4skn



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2950
Location: 36� 3'N x 86�40'W

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jerry Fletcher wrote:
moylan wrote:


So that is how some of the loudest and most insistent voices "questioning" the 9-11 story can be on the other side. The method is to encourage people to concentrate on details, distract them from what matters, namely why. Everyone who is honest with themselves knows buildings can't be brought down by airlines hijacked by boxcutter-wielding terrorists with a few weeks' training in flight simulators: so why do the fakes keep going on about how impossible it is?
Because it sounds good, because you've always wanted to be told that Kennedy wasn't shot by a man who couldn't even hold a rifle straight; but analysis of the reasons, the context, the structure of the plan? No chance.


Nice.
*applause*

Well said. I'd have to say I agree. Using certain elements of the truth as a distraction. Very 'True Lies'.

And you didn't even have to use the word 'steamy.' Wink


Fisrtly, thanks for the replies.

Okay. I suppose my only answer is that you guys are on another plane from me. Sad

When I speak to friends about 9/11, I consistently get "You're a paranoid lunatic. That could never happen in America." I show them "Loose Change 2" and suddenly some of them start to take notice.

So, how in the hell is this aiding the perps? Without some of these visual aids I use - most of which you guys describe as dogshit - helping to obscure the issue, I'd never get them half-way to first base. No, they're not ready to buy the G8 setup, but they first have to notice that they've been lied to, about something. Anything.

Are you sure you're not micro-managing this issue? Aren't you assuming everyone is as brilliant as you guys that they can dig 7 layers into the subtext and come up with confluences of truth? I'll tell you something - if the 9/11 CoverUp Revelation is ever going to get legs, it's going to have to appeal to the little guy, or you may as well not even bother to bring it up.

I spend a lot of time on the Average Joe message boards, just trying to get them to pay the slightest attention to this shit. And you know what happens? Real shills show up, guys from DIA, CIA, the Rendon Group, etc. Paid cocksuckers who get paid to shill, to misdirect, to disinform, argue long-debunked issues. Now THOSE guys are the bad guys, in my book. Not ALex Jones. So, you guys think www.globalresearch.ca is a "CIA fake" site? Then what's your take on this horseshit: www.911myths.com This is the new darling of the shill sites. It's awful, and every shill that comes in where I hang out links directly to it. Christ - they're even still denying the Kennedy op, as if it's the newest directive towards the masses: "Don't let them make the connection to the JFK thing, or we're fucked."

You claim global research is a crock because they "go on and on about details." ????? Fuck YES they go on about details - these morons in the general public AREN'T GETTING IT. Before you give a speech to the average crowd, you have to whack them upside the head with a 2 x 4. I don't know who you guys hang out with, but it seems to be physics majors and structural engineers. I can see how you could argue details and subtleties with that crowd, but if Joe Six-Pack doesn't start to buy into this, we might as well roll up the carpets and stamp G8 on our foreheads. Going on and on about details is not always a sign of evil - sometimes you have to reach the mentally-challenged, just because of their sheer numbers, and sometimes they only get things with sufficient repetition.

Now, you'll probably say that your discussions are above and beyond the things I deal with, and you're probably right. But teaching a convention of eggheads that there's ONE guy who can be trusted when it comes to 9/11 isn't gonna get it done, believe me. If the masses don't see it on the evening news, it didn't happen. I've heard Fintan say, "Turn off your fucking TV set." Yeah, now there's a viable plan. It's certainly true, in terms of it's honesty of approach, but what fucking chance is there that it will happen??? What late-night coke binge party was responsible for that plan of attack? Are you guys aware of the reality of life for the average person? Or is the theory - if it doesn't come out exactly the way we see it, then it's better left in the dark. I don't get it, I truly don't.

As I said, you guys are obviously, enormously smarter than I. And I didn't come in here to argue, I truly want to understand what's going on. But usually the description is cryptic to me, at best.

All I've learned so far is: "Don't stick your head in steamy dogshit." And it's possible I may have known that beforehand.

_________________
"No matter what happens, ever... there's ALWAYS at least one reason. And the top reason is ALWAYS money."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Rumpl4skn



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2950
Location: 36� 3'N x 86�40'W

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In addendum:

Let me ask this - do you actually think there are enough people visiting 9/11 websites that the 9/11 Perps need to control a percentage of them?

I get the feeling you guys think there are tens of millions of people who are into 9/11 now, and if the Perps can misdirect them towards - whatever you claim they're being misdirected towards - they will be victorious. To me, THAT is an alternative viewpoint of the highest naivete'.

I'm sorry - I seriously doubt there's more than half of 1 per cent of Americans who have ever even heard there are questions about 9/11, and half of those are sure that it's all just a bunch of paranoid lunatics who spend too much time on the internet(s) because they believe they may have been abducted in a past life.

Secondly - those people protesting in downtown NYC with the "Reopen 911" banners. I'll bet you most of them are investing belief in the same sites you call "CIA fakes." Are you going to discard those people? Are they so far off-base that you can call them fakes without cutting the 9/11 awareness in half? I beg to differ.

Much of what Fintan rants about makes absolute, 100% sense to me, particularly the electoral stuff about the left vs. right professional wrestling distraction. And I'm very close to buying into what goes on here, but I seriously need to know your answers to these questions, if you please.

_________________
"No matter what happens, ever... there's ALWAYS at least one reason. And the top reason is ALWAYS money."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
hawkwind



Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 727

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 8:31 pm    Post subject: Example Reply with quote

OK, this is getting tedious ... I like our passion though. Let me give you a real example of how endorsement of some "popular" sites will bite you in the ass when you promote them. I will use Alex Jones because this is his MO. Let say that through whatever method, you finally convinced a person to listen to Alex Jones because he is the "man". This new convert can only listen to him via podcast/AM/CB/shortwave or what ever the fuck, while driving to get "McPoison" for lunch. During the whole listening time, our "man" Jones is scaring the shit out of a caller because she has lost custody of her child. Our "man" Jones, proceeds to go into a 15 minute rant about how the child could have been kidnapped and is on a plane to Saudi Arabia for a child sex ring. Now how do you look to your new convert?

There is nothing wrong with passing around links to collaborated information and if you suffer "blowback" ... so what ... at least you planted a seed. The moral of the story is to invest time in the "seeds" that will yield fruit.

I just know that this did not satisfy you ... only time can give you the wisdom to know that tactic works in your environment.

PS "Physics/Engineering friends???" If they can't open a "can of whoop-ass" with it, my associates are not interested! Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rumpl4skn



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2950
Location: 36� 3'N x 86�40'W

PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2006 9:14 pm    Post subject: it's the term "CIA fake" Reply with quote

hawkwind wrote:
OK, this is getting tedious ... I like our passion though. Let me give you a real example of how endorsement of some "popular" sites will bite you in the ass when you promote them. I will use Alex Jones because this is his MO. Let say that through whatever method, you finally convinced a person to listen to Alex Jones because he is the "man". This new convert can only listen to him via podcast/AM/CB/shortwave or what ever the fuck, while driving to get "McPoison" for lunch. During the whole listening time, our "man" Jones is scaring the shit out of a caller because she has lost custody of her child. Our "man" Jones, proceeds to go into a 15 minute rant about how the child could have been kidnapped and is on a plane to Saudi Arabia for a child sex ring. Now how do you look to your new convert?

There is nothing wrong with passing around links to collaborated information and if you suffer "blowback" ... so what ... at least you planted a seed. The moral of the story is to invest time in the "seeds" that will yield fruit.

I just know that this did not satisfy you ... only time can give you the wisdom to know that tactic works in your environment.

PS "Physics/Engineering friends???" If they can't open a "can of whoop-ass" with it, my associates are not interested! Laughing

Okay, now this gives me some insight.

Firstly, you guys do hang out with the extreme end of hipness in the globalist world, who are light-years beyond the arguments that "something happened" on 9/11 that wasn't what the government told us. I don't - I live and work with rednecks who still have W The President stickers on their trucks, and still think he was "the right man for the job", the job of course, killing stinkin' A-rabs. Besides my ideological differences, these guys are eons from even seeing what's wrong with the administration, let alone what's being done globally. You mention "CIA" and they look at you like you have 2 heads.

Secondly, I would never send anyone to infowars or prisonplanet for 9/11 stuff - at least, I wouldn't give them the url and turn them loose there. Too much wild stuff for the uninitiated. I will ocasionally reference an article or video link if it's well done.

But is that the explanation - that because not everything on that website is plausible or meant for mass consumption, that Jones is thereby "a CIA fake"? That's what I'm having a problem with - this general, wide-paintbrush accusation that certain people are exactly that - the bad guys. Do you really believe that Alex Jones is an actual CIA disinformation agent? Or is this simply an extreme put-down, generated out of disgust for what you perceive as his unnecessarily hokey outlook on all things conspiratorial?

This is the assumption that I'm having problems with. Not to mention globalresearch and all the others in that list of "fakes" that are posted up and slammed here.

I think Alex Jones is an extreme case, but some of the sites listed here as fakes seem like not fake at all. Perhaps a little misguided, or a little intimidated by their corporate owners, etc. Not as pure as you'd like to see, but not deliberate fakes to me, but then you'd probably say I'm naive. And if you're going to say "if they are under corporate control, they aren't to be considered." Yes, in a perfect world, but this is reality. And if 60 Minutes one night skirts the edges of 9/11, I will applaud. I don't care how juvenile or low-level the information is. It has to start somewhere. And you know - in the event any MSM outlets ever gets close - the first dribs and drabs of it will be ridiculously bad. But I live in a world where if I simply get people to accept the possibility that their government will lie to them, it's a huge victory. This is the United States of Amnesia.

No, I certainly don't buy everything on every site, not even this one. But how easily certain info outlets cross the line from "wrong" about things to "deliberate disinformation" here is beyond me.

If you guys are simply trying to convince me that there is erroneous info on some sites, there's no need. I'm certainly hip to that. And therefore, I'm trying to convince you that the implied overkill of labeling them all CIA is having the opposite effect. It instead may sometime make me question you and your motives, not their's.

Just FYI, okay? That's all.

p.s. Thank you. And, btw, if explaining this to someone like me is "tedious"... what great debate am I taking you guys away from tonight? What's hot on the 9/11 list? News on this subject is doled out with a toothpick these days. I spend many "tedious" sessions myself, working over pinheads too stupid to find their own heads with both hands and a roadmap, trying to get them to see what's right in front of them. It's either important enough to put time into, or it isn't. And there are many levels to this awkening. Don't belittle the low-level grunt work. I guarantee none of us woke up on Sept. 11th, 2001, and said, "Holy shit! Did you see that radio-controlled 737 from the G8 perpetrators just hit the North Tower?" We all had to start somewhere.

_________________
"No matter what happens, ever... there's ALWAYS at least one reason. And the top reason is ALWAYS money."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
moylan



Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 104

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not "tedious" at all...

I would just say that if these perception managers were "obvious" about what they do, they would not fool anyone. The danger posed by a 9-11 people's movement is what these people fear. They may express contempt for the electorate and treat them as idiots, but there is a political purpose for this: to demoralise, to depict the consequences of expressing opposition to Operation Overwhelming Force. But the fact is: these criminals are in terror of their lives that people will start waking up.

The propaganda is not aimed at those who have a vested interest in mindlessly repeating propaganda slogans about how subverting democracy in other countries is done in the name of encouraging democracy. It is aimed at those who are confused, demoralised, afraid. Though I think the film is dreadful, an analogy with the Matrix may be of use here: the Matrix only needs these programs for those who believe there's something wrong with the world, not for those who are perfectly happy and oblivious in their cocoons.

Latin America has been the happy hunting ground for the US this century, in terms of propaganda and suppression of resistance, and particularly in the use of proxies and provacateurs. Here in Ireland (Europe's own private Latin America) we have a State broadcasting service called RTE, and at the best of times it is little better than an arm of Government. So when Bush paid his royal visit here, we had joyous propaganda about "moving forward" and "forgetting the past", the "past" being the ongoing use of one of our airports as a US military stopover on the way to Iraq and for CIA planes bringing kidnap victims to lovely places like Uzbekistan and Egypt. A study of RTE's perception management tactics would be salutary for anyone who wants to understand how propaganda works. The reason that the methods are comparatively sophisticated is that there is a strong tradition of resistance here which the loyalists (Bush-Blair loyalists I mean) both fear and despise, and this has to be taken into account.

One example: the report about Haiti's stolen election. Aristide, we were told, "resigned" from office and "fled the country", as opposed to being ousted by a US-backed coup, one which is being endorsed by the UN. Now Haiti is off the agenda in favour of Uncle Tom Annan making strident pronouncements about Guantanamo Bay, which the White House are treating with the contempt they deserve. Message: the UN is Good, but at the same time the UN is Powerless. Just ignore the UN troops occupying Haiti, shooting civilians dead and dumping thousands of ballots because the wrong candidate won.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rumpl4skn



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2950
Location: 36� 3'N x 86�40'W

PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

moylan wrote:
It's not "tedious" at all...

I would just say that if these perception managers were "obvious" about what they do, they would not fool anyone. The danger posed by a 9-11 people's movement is what these people fear. They may express contempt for the electorate and treat them as idiots, but there is a political purpose for this: to demoralise, to depict the consequences of expressing opposition to Operation Overwhelming Force.

Well, I'll have to take your word on that. I don't see that at all in the websites I frequent. They are hopeful, supportive and encouraging that people spread the word. Granted, some of that is to sell videos. : ) But we all have domain hosting to pay for, and some of them have large bandwidth charges to absorb as well.

Not to be continually tedious, but - there is a concerted effort in the low-levels of the Truth Movement wherein I see government shills selling this LIHOP scenario with great fervor. They have no problem calling Bush the great ideological Satan, but he or his admin most certainly did not perpetrate any crime, other than "allowing" others' crimes to happen. That I definitely see as an ongoing sales campaign, and it is far more obvious to me than the picture you guys paint.

Now, I did read (or hear) the analogy here about the 2 hateful hardware store owners who turned out to be brothers, so that concept of faux-rivalry to generate interest is in my head, and it makes sense. Heavyweight prizefights are not about finding out who is the best fighter, they're about selling tickets and adverts. But the phony-construct argument I plainly see is this LIHOP/MIHOP argument, and it does generate much passion in the forums, as it's intended to, I suppose.

Quote:
Though I think the film is dreadful, an analogy with the Matrix may be of use here: the Matrix only needs these programs for those who believe there's something wrong with the world, not for those who are perfectly happy and oblivious in their cocoons.


Okay, I'm going to have to rent The Matrix, I guess. Too many references to things of which I'm clueless. I did see the original back when it came out, but I may have been stoned in prep for the cool FX. Cool I honestly don't remember anything about the story line, and you've convinced me there was one.

Quote:
One example: the report about Haiti's stolen election. Aristide, we were told, "resigned" from office and "fled the country", as opposed to being ousted by a US-backed coup, one which is being endorsed by the UN. Now Haiti is off the agenda in favour of Uncle Tom Annan making strident pronouncements about Guantanamo Bay, which the White House are treating with the contempt they deserve. Message: the UN is Good, but at the same time the UN is Powerless. Just ignore the UN troops occupying Haiti, shooting civilians dead and dumping thousands of ballots because the wrong candidate won.

My gf's stepfather regularly works in Haiti, building schoolrooms out of old shipping containers, and I believe he would corroborate your take on it. In private, anyway, he would. People who speak up in opposition to the status quo tend to "suddenly get depressed and kill themselves" down there.

_________________
"No matter what happens, ever... there's ALWAYS at least one reason. And the top reason is ALWAYS money."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
capt w



Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 71

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.911blogger.com/files/MAXIM-MARCH-2006-911-Conspiracy-Theories.pdf

see article in Maxim magazine

now is this supposed to wake people up or send them back to sleep?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Rumpl4skn



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2950
Location: 36� 3'N x 86�40'W

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's supposed to appear to be a genuine attempt at revelation. Without making anything look too genuine.

I just loved the addition of the Icke reptile show, just perfect. I can only suppose the inclusion of that was key to the deal. :roll:

_________________
"No matter what happens, ever... there's ALWAYS at least one reason. And the top reason is ALWAYS money."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Phil Howe



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

capt w wrote:
http://www.911blogger.com/files/MAXIM-MARCH-2006-911-Conspiracy-Theories.pdf

see article in Maxim magazine

now is this supposed to wake people up or send them back to sleep?


I think you have to look at articles like this, and how they come to be, with some understanding of those who are writing them and what is going through their minds.

For the editors of a money making magazine like Maxim writing about 911 conspiracies could potentially not only alienate and infuriate much of their audience but it may have a dramatic impact on their earnings, sponsorships, and future credibility. In order for them to get away with it they must package it in an ambigous manner that allows for the reader to decipher for himself whether it's a debunking article or a genuine cry for closer inspection, the method here is to write it in such a way that it can, and will be, taken as both by different people. It is a very shreud business maneuvor with a built in escape clause should they suddenly receive a backlask of patriotric readers demanding all the money back they have ever spent on said magazine over the last 10 years.


I have great respect that this article was published and understanding the beurocracy behind such a business, and the sheer risk factor for investors, this article, like all others that appear in similiar fashion, are not to be taken for granted.

We have to learn to know when to switch off our paranoia and recognize a genuine, if not top shelf -no pun intended- article that's true purpose was to very craftily raise awareness to 911 anomolies whilst not causing a massive backlash for doing so.

It ain't perfect but hell, if there purpose was to debunk they would not of written it like this, in fact they could of just said nothing if their strategy was to make us dissapear, or rather pretend to themselves and their readers that such information even exists or is worthy of writing about.

To quote myself, 'Read between the lines between the lines'..and try and look on the brightside Smile

_________________
www.strangeisnotafruit.blogs.com


Last edited by Phil Howe on Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Next Level Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 13, 14, 15 ... 40, 41, 42  Next
Page 14 of 42

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

Theme xand created by spleen.