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Uncovered: The Rat's Nest of 9/11
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Ian Neal



Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Fintan

Out of curiosity do you have an opinion about this site?

www.nineeleven.co.uk

Don't feel you have to have one, but if you have one I would be interested to hear it

Thanks

Ian

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kawazu



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 54
Location: Kansas

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil Howe wrote:
I think you have to look at articles like this, and how they come to be, with some understanding of those who are writing them and what is going through their minds.

For the editors of a money making magazine like Maxim writing about 911 conspiracies could potentially not only alienate and infuriate much of their audience but it may have a dramatic impact on their earnings, sponsorships, and future credibility. In order for them to get away with it they must package it in an ambigous manner that allows for the reader to decipher for himself whether it's a debunking article or a genuine cry for closer inspection, the method here is to write it in such a way that it can, and will be, taken as both by different people.
Are you implying that you know what is going through their minds,and what the motivation is behind the Maxim article,or are you just assuming?You have been critical of Fintan in this thread because you say he has not provided enough evidence to back up his CIA Fakes list.I too would like to see more hard evidence,but I have seen more than enough circumstantial evidence to know that virtually everything is suspect,and it is best to look at any offering from the media as suspicious until you can prove otherwise,rather than the other way around.The circumstantial evidence and "coincidences" are piled high,implicating a mass corruption of not only the mainstream but the alternative media as well.Where is the evidence that the 9-11"Truth Movement"is not as rotten as a worm infested apple?Has this article and all the others like it gotten us anywhere,or have they only contributed to the chaos?Has any of the "support"of the 9-11 movement from high profile characters and media helped us move forward,or has it been leading us in circles?In my opinion most people who read about 911 "conspiracy theories" in a magazine like maxim or hear about it on T.V hear it and dismiss it along with most of the other dubious crap they are exposed too.Sure,its going to wake up a few people who might not otherwise have,but overall I think the effect is to put people back to sleep or turn them off so they will then consider it a closed issue and go back to not giving a shit as long as Mcdonalds is still open.Just because the issue is brought up in a public forum doesnt automaticly mean its a good thing.It also does not mean its automaticly the work of CIA Fakes or usefull idiots,but at this point I believe it is the more likely occurence.
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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

moylan wrote:
They may express contempt for the electorate and treat them as idiots, but there is a political purpose for this: to demoralise, to depict the consequences of expressing opposition to Operation Overwhelming Force.


moylan wrote:

Though I think the film is dreadful, an analogy with the Matrix may be of use here: the Matrix only needs these programs for those who believe there's something wrong with the world, not for those who are perfectly happy and oblivious in their cocoons.



Moylan,

Again, really well said - Not much to add, other than I think I've got a crush on your posts.

moylan wrote:

... and particularly in the use of proxies and provacateurs. Here in Ireland (Europe's own private Latin America) we have ...


* light bulb goes on above Jerry's head *

Oh yeah...never thought about it like that but, hmmm....

moylan wrote:

One example: the report about Haiti's stolen election. Aristide, we were told, "resigned" from office and "fled the country", as opposed to being ousted by a US-backed coup, one which is being endorsed by the UN. Now Haiti is off the agenda in favour of Uncle Tom Annan making strident pronouncements about Guantanamo Bay, which the White House are treating with the contempt they deserve. Message: the UN is Good, but at the same time the UN is Powerless. Just ignore the UN troops occupying Haiti, shooting civilians dead and dumping thousands of ballots because the wrong candidate won.


Oh yeah, the UN had to 'rescue' him by forcing him onto a US military plane and flying him to 'safety', didn't they?

Funny, I had almost forgotten all about that Haiti thing...
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bornfree



Joined: 28 Jan 2006
Posts: 509

PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:47 pm    Post subject: Here's another angle Reply with quote

When workers first started in factories and a worker thought unfairness was afoot he would shut his machine off and other workers would follow suit. No machinery running, no production. The workers didn't go to work till the matter was settled.

Then came the bright idea from management that instead of shutting down production workers should choose a representative to work out the problem while production continued.

When faced with lost production and dealing with a labor issue or dealing with a representative from a Union while production continued Management saw the wisdom of worker Unions (within limits).

So it is with CIA Fakes. Given the choice between the people who suspect the official story is fake and letting these people discover the whole truth or letting them discover part of the truth Management is content on revealing a little to hide a lot.

When you play football you have an offense and a defense. The two teams work together because during the game, the other side is going to have the ball and Management must be prepared to deal with that fact.

Defense is in place to make sure the other team gains as little ground as possible while they have the ball (desire for the truth).

It's how the game is won.
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Keenan



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 21
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:42 am    Post subject: Fintan's modus operandi is toxic Reply with quote

This discussion has been the most usefull I've seen on this site so far. Phil's input I think really got this discussion going in a valuable direction and covered some important ground. I don't visit BFN much anymore because I've become frustrated with the lack of useful information and Fintan's generally demoralizing and accusatory style in shooting down seemingly anyone and everyone on the left and/or the growing movement opposing the Bush Administration and fascist NWO.

Soon after I started looking at Breakfornews last year, mainly interested in 9/11 related material, I quickly decided that Fintan's journalistic methods are toxic. It seems that Fintan provides very little in the way of facts or information, but very much in the way of clever "nuanced" spin, most of it geared towards outing every person, one by one, as a CIA/FBI/NSA/MI6 etc, etc, etc who is involved with reporting/researching 9/11 lies, and anyone who is a whistleblower (Jo Wilson, Sibel Edmonds, etc.). After the ridiculous "CIA Fakes" list, and reading Fintan's lame and dishonest responses to some criticisms in this Forum regarding his unproven "CIA Fakes" and "9/11 Rats" nonsense, I became thoroughly disgusted with his journalism methods. Fintan essentially points the finger to just about everyone as a CIA or disinfo agent. When pressed to provide proof for any of these allegations, Fintan says that he has already written previous articles with the evidence. But I've read through his "research" and the only evidence Fintan provides is speculations, guilt-by-association, and other variations of non sequiturs. No matter how many times Fintan claims to have provided evidence, just saying he gave evidence doesn't make it evidence.

Then come the ridiculous assertions along the lines of, "everything in the 9/11 truth movement, even your reactions, are already scripted and totally controlled".

Then on top of that, Fintan asserts that Peak Oil is a hoax, and global warming is a scam - "fear of earth changes" (whatever that means)

The effect of Fintan's methods is to try to demoralize everyone who is aware of the government criminality and lies and trying to make positive change, into thinking that we can't do anything, we can't trust anyone - even everyone on our side, and we might as well not even try, because "they have total control over us and already know what we are thinking before we even thought it."

If Fintan isn't getting a paycheck from the CIA or PsyOps, they are getting one hell of bargain.

To be honest, I have no idea who is paying Fintan or what the hell his ultimate agenda is about, and I'm not goint to say he is a "CIA Fake" or other agent because I have no proof and it would be hypocritical of me to do so. But I can say with certainty that his effect on the movement is toxic and I'm glad that he has such a tiny following (his web site traffic counters are bull s*it). Anyway, I'm glad that more and more folks on this forum are intelligent enough to see through his crap.
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hawkwind



Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 740

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Fintan's modus operandi is toxic Reply with quote

Well Keenan, nice to hear from you ...

Keenan wrote:
This discussion has been the most useful I've seen on this site so far. Phil's input I think really got this discussion going in a valuable direction and covered some important ground.


Hmm, so truth and free thinking are REALLY a popularity contest. Even when one abuses the host, then quits the site because nobody understands. Then comes back (against their will) and insists that its YOUR fault they had to leave in the first place. And if you continue to disagree with them, they will have to leave again?? I'm not a social worker, but aren't there government run shelters to go to for assistance? Search for "battered wife syndrome" on Google.

Keenan wrote:
I don't visit BFN much anymore because I've become frustrated with the lack of useful information and Fintan's generally demoralizing and accusatory style in shooting down seemingly anyone and everyone on the left and/or the growing movement opposing the Bush Administration and fascist NWO.


So the left is NOT in bed with the "Bush Administration and fascist NWO"? This is BIG news to me. You have sparked my interest and squashed any doubts I might have about your intensions. I finally get your point, "useful idiots" are far more important than "useful information".

Keenan wrote:
Soon after I started looking at Breakfornews last year, mainly interested in 9/11 related material, I quickly decided that Fintan's journalistic methods are toxic. It seems that Fintan provides very little in the way of facts or information, but very much in the way of clever "nuanced" spin, most of it geared towards outing every person, one by one, as a CIA/FBI/NSA/MI6 etc, etc, etc who is involved with reporting/researching 9/11 lies, and anyone who is a whistleblower (Jo Wilson, Sibel Edmonds, etc.). After the ridiculous "CIA Fakes" list, and reading Fintan's lame and dishonest responses to some criticisms in this Forum regarding his unproven "CIA Fakes" and "9/11 Rats" nonsense, I became thoroughly disgusted with his journalism methods. Fintan essentially points the finger to just about everyone as a CIA or disinfo agent. When pressed to provide proof for any of these allegations, Fintan says that he has already written previous articles with the evidence. But I've read through his "research" and the only evidence Fintan provides is speculations, guilt-by-association, and other variations of non sequiturs. No matter how many times Fintan claims to have provided evidence, just saying he gave evidence doesn't make it evidence.

Then come the ridiculous assertions along the lines of, "everything in the 9/11 truth movement, even your reactions, are already scripted and totally controlled".

Then on top of that, Fintan asserts that Peak Oil is a hoax, and global warming is a scam - "fear of earth changes" (whatever that means)

The effect of Fintan's methods is to try to demoralize everyone who is aware of the government criminality and lies and trying to make positive change, into thinking that we can't do anything, we can't trust anyone - even everyone on our side, and we might as well not even try, because "they have total control over us and already know what we are thinking before we even thought it."


So WHY are we here? Now that you have convinced me to think your way, its foolish to even visit this awful and toxic site.

Keenan wrote:
If Fintan isn't getting a paycheck from the CIA or PsyOps, they are getting one hell of bargain.

To be honest, I have no idea who is paying Fintan or what the hell his ultimate agenda is about, and I'm not goint to say he is a "CIA Fake" or other agent because I have no proof and it would be hypocritical of me to do so.


WOW, let me get this straight, if I deny I'm a hypocrite, I am NOT a hypocrite? I need to remember that one. Would you please tell the folks in the home office to get that check out to Fintan, he really could use the cash, charity begins at home.

Keenan wrote:
But I can say with certainty that his effect on the movement is toxic and I'm glad that he has such a tiny following (his web site traffic counters are bull s*it). Anyway, I'm glad that more and more folks on this forum are intelligent enough to see through his crap.


So freedom of thought IS a popularity contest, I see, thanks for bringing me up to speed. I'll go back to the more "popular" sites and re-pledge my allegiance to their causes and I will call my doctor to discuss what medications are available for the "toxicity" floating around in my brain. Wink Fintan, I'm very angry with you!

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Keenan



Joined: 03 Mar 2006
Posts: 21
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Fintan's modus operandi is toxic Reply with quote

Well, Hawkwind, I see your reasoning ability and logic is seriously handicapped. Hmmm. Let's see...where do I start?

Hawkwind wrote:
Quote:
so truth and fee thinking are really a popularity contest?


Ah, no Hawkwind, it's very simple. It has to do with whether or not a person's claims are backed up with evidence and logical argumentation. I would try addressing the specific issues I raised, rather than just using ad hominem attacks and baseless assertions against me if you want me to respect what you say. I mentioned Phil as one person as an example of someone on this forum who's arguments are logical and are backed up with facts. As soon as you start using higher standards in your arguments that would fit within the category of logical and evidenciary, then I will give you the same level or respect.

Hawkwind wrote:
Quote:
Even when one abuses the host...


So, if someone points out some flaws in the host's arguments, then that should be considered abuse? Hmmm. you sound like those slavish followers of Bush who attack anyone who brings attention to Bush's crimes as being unfair and abusive, no matter how many times Bush's hands are caught in the cookie jar.

Hawkwind wrote:
Quote:
So the left is NOT in bed with the 'Bush Administration and fascist NWO'? This is BIG news to me. You have sparked my interest and squashed any doubts I might have about your intensions.


Awe shucks! How did you know I was a fascist NWO agent? Damn! It looks like you're on to the whole friggin conspiracy! Ok, I guess I'd better confess. Yep, the whole leftist population, which is probably about 70 million and growing Amerikkans who claim to be against corporate rule, claim to believe that profit shouldn't come before people and the environment, claim to believe that the resources of the world should be shared more justly and democratically rather than grabbed by the most violent and powerful, that claim to believe that we can't trust the corporate media...WE ARE OUT TO GET YOU! WE ARE RIGHT NOW AS I WRITE THIS PLOTTING WITH THE UNITED NATIONS TO TAKE OVER THE US AND ENSLAVE YOU. We've all been trained by the CIA and have infiltrated every level of this society, every movement, every political and social organization. I was trying to lure you into my trap so that my illumaniti agents can track you, implant gamma programming into your mind from this computer and...

It's too late for you, Hawkwind, we're closing in on you...
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Phil Howe



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 1:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Fintan's modus operandi is toxic Reply with quote

hawkwind wrote:

Hmm, so truth and free thinking are REALLY a popularity contest. Even when one abuses the host, then quits the site because nobody understands. Then comes back (against their will) and insists that its YOUR fault they had to leave in the first place. And if you continue to disagree with them, they will have to leave again?? I'm not a social worker, but aren't there government run shelters to go to for assistance? Search for "battered wife syndrome" on Google.


Ok Hawkwind I'm a nice guy so i'll cut you some slack. You have not deliberately lied you are simply incorrect.

I never came back here 'against my will' where the hell did you pull that carrot from?

I had some strong words for Fintan but nothing compared to the things he has claimed about other activists and at least my comments-whilst flippant at times- were backed up with reason, fact and logic.

Now might you be trying to suggest I need mental help? Does simple logic so intimidate you that you revert to such childish and unsubstantiated name calling?

I left this sight because at the time it appeared that the majority on this forum has been irreversibly sucked down into Fintans hall of mirrors. I then saw that another voice of reason appeared and then another, and another, like the first tulips of spring emerging from a bitter, wet and miserable winter. This gave me hope that some who pass through this area of the internet are not left wandering that hall of mirrors for eternity whilst attempting to follow the sound of Fintan's voice in a futile quest to find a way out.

I have also made it very clear I am not here to make friends, but rather intelligent points, so your skit about popularity is more likely a product of your own internal jealousy, either at the fact that I am not the only person who uses reason as a mine worker may use a flashlight or perhaps you are intimidated that I am not only willing to use my real name but my real picture too- which is a good one wouldn't you say? Wink Razz

Either way Hawkwind the fact you attack another person for simply endorsing my reasoning is your problem, not mine or anyone elses. Get over it and get on with doing the right thing.

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Rumpl4skn



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 2950
Location: 36� 3'N x 86�40'W

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm slightly confused with this "all or nothing" attitude some have regarding internet sources - on both sides of the current row here. Personally, I think the most dangerous thing you can do is throw in with one source and swallow all that's offered, particularly if some of the info is admonishment of other's opinions and the non-trustworthiness of other sources.

I've found this website to be a wealth of info and takes on things that I hadn't encountered or considered previously. But I don't for a minute buy everything I see here, and no one should do that with any website.

The Perpetrators disinfo campaign has been in full swing since the afternoon of 9/11, and one of the major contributors to it is simply confusion over who is to be trusted. I belong to about a dozen message boards now, and I see the deliberate divide and conquer tactics everywhere.

One thing with which I wholeheartedly agree upon with Fintan - the 9/11 Truth Movement must be a leaderless revolution. The Perps are trying to destroy any emerging leaders, and I think that plays into our hands if we handle it correctly. I'll take 100 million people talking over 1 screaming any day.

I say give them the rope, they'll definitely hang themselves. No 'pods' or implosions necessary.

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Phil Howe



Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rumpl4skn wrote:
I'm slightly confused with this "all or nothing" attitude some have regarding internet sources - on both sides of the current row here. Personally, I think the most dangerous thing you can do is throw in with one source and swallow all that's offered, particularly if some of the info is admonishment of other's opinions and the non-trustworthiness of other sources.

I've found this website to be a wealth of info and takes on things that I hadn't encountered or considered previously. But I don't for a minute buy everything I see here, and no one should do that with any website.

The Perpetrators disinfo campaign has been in full swing since the afternoon of 9/11, and one of the major contributors to it is simply confusion over who is to be trusted. I belong to about a dozen message boards now, and I see the deliberate divide and conquer tactics everywhere.

One thing with which I wholeheartedly agree upon with Fintan - the 9/11 Truth Movement must be a leaderless revolution. The Perps are trying to destroy any emerging leaders, and I think that plays into our hands if we handle it correctly. I'll take 100 million people talking over 1 screaming any day.

I say give them the rope, they'll definitely hang themselves. No 'pods' or implosions necessary.



I think your right on almost all your points but it pays to realize and accept the cold truth that it is ourselves who do much of the conquering and dividing and not disinfo agents. This kind of stuff-conspiracies- can on occasion feel like an exclusive club of Neo's whose ego's often run off with their broadening paranoia. Many of us become so high and mighty we decide we have the higher ground and therfore the right to start witch hunting those like us who we are threatened by or simply disagree with.

'I'm allowed to call you a disinfo agent because I fight for the truth and my truth is sooooooo obviously more truthful than yours. I therefore label you a disinfo agent, hmmph. Bring me my worshippers, I need massaging'.......


You get my point. Do not label others as disinfo agents without proof, to do so without is irresponsible and just plain wrong. Do you believe Bin Laden masterminded 911? no. Why? cause there is no proof. Don't fall into the same trap as those you may claim to be battling because throwing labels upon others without knowing they deserve those labels is really no different than persecuting any Muslim whether in your mind or in the physical sense as being somehow responsible for an event they had nothing much to do with.

Use the same basic principles you apply to 911 in all areas of your life otherwise you are really no better off than the sheople, the liars, the mainstream media and the real perpetrators. Fintan has still not offered a shred of tangible evidence to back up his CIA Rats claims, still has not supplied his 'trusted' 911 entities list and is still attempting to attack others such as www.rense.com in ways that are now bordering on purely spiteful and completely lacking in any intelligence. These are facts people. I think Fintan ought to take a step back and maybe take a break for a week or two and get away from all this before his downfall becomes irreversible and journalisticly fatal for him.

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Rumpl4skn



Joined: 11 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phil Howe wrote:
[ I think Fintan ought to take a step back and maybe take a break for a week or two and get away from all this before his downfall becomes irreversible and journalisticly fatal for him.

Well, maybe. But that's not my point in this.

Let me put it this way - why in the world would someone attack another messenger they obviously don't like, using the reasoning that they "don't want to see them hurt themselves or their cause"? That's illogical. What do I care what someone I dislike says, or what the consequences will be to their reputation? I would applaud them saying the dumbest shit they can come up with.

I have bigger fears over the increasing in-fighting in this movement than I do over what any one info or disinfo agent is spewing about a particular point. As I said, like any source, I don't agree with some of what Fintan says. But I have no compulsion - or delusion of intellectual superiority - to point this out to him. He believes what he believes - he's either sincere or he's not, and that's not for me to decide. I only need to decide whether or not I find it credible.

I feel Fintan is more intelligent than I, and far more researched on most of these subjects. Still, I don't swallow all of it, simply because I often trust my instincts above all else. Call it a character defect, I guess.

Cool

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Jerry Fletcher



Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rumple wrote:
I'm slightly confused with this "all or nothing" attitude some have regarding internet sources - on both sides of the current row here. Personally, I think the most dangerous thing you can do is throw in with one source and swallow all that's offered, particularly if some of the info is admonishment of other's opinions and the non-trustworthiness of other sources.

I've found this website to be a wealth of info and takes on things that I hadn't encountered or considered previously. But I don't for a minute buy everything I see here, and no one should do that with any website.


Nicely said, Rumple. I agree. I believe one of the key features of being human is the ability to never be 100% accurate. Demanding to know which 911 researchers are 'the good ones' is misguided, IMO - they're only a source of information. How that information makes you behave is a matter of self knowledge.

Even Sherlock Holmes begins with the big magnifying glass, looking for clues, but eventually pockets it, lights his pipe, and adds the facts up for himself - regardless of the conclusions of Scotland Yard, the victim's associates, or even gullible Watson. He certainly doesn't waste time trying to convince anyone who'll listen that the perpetrator is a 'liar', he simply points out the untruths, and lets Scotland Yard act on the obvious 'conclusion'.

Recurring posts criticizing the Reporter rather than the report only make me suspicious of the poster's agenda, not speculate on the irrelevant issue of the Reporter's sincerity.

It seems as if there's some interest in establishing 'teams' or 'sides' here on this board - coincidentally, I've seen this 'development' undermine other discussions on other boards looking for 'truth', and on a larger scale, I've read about this mentality/tactic being responsible for things like world wars, so I hope this is not the case.

So, I'm over the drama, intrigue, bickering, whose right / wrong bullshit. Who cares what Fintan thinks about anybody really? We know nobody can ever be 100% accurate. Can we please talk about something really important, like Rense's hair! There's the real Rat's Nest.

Keenan wrote:

Then on top of that, Fintan asserts that Peak Oil is a hoax, and global warming is a scam...


Hi Keenan.
I'm glad you mentioned this.
Can you fill me in on what the real deal is with this peak oil / global warming thing?
I don't know who to believe on this issue.
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