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duane



Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 554
Location: western pennsylvania

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 7:43 am    Post subject: Alcohol can be a gas Reply with quote

permaculture to the rescue.
if done correctly, ethanol can provide all our energy needs. no oil wars needed!!!

http://www.alcoholcanbeagas.net/

i just go the book and currently reading it



remember on this Memorial Day weekend, the best way of honoring the war dead is by not making any more of them.

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puffdaddy



Joined: 06 Feb 2006
Posts: 506
Location: Northern California

PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2008 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Laphroiag and Glenlivet aren't bad but I prefer Lagavulin....seriously alcohol may be the way go since gasoline is apparently going to cost 7 bucks a gallon next year. We are becoming slaves to the oil executives now and its going to get much worse. I would love to be able to make fuel at home. I am going to read that book. Thanks!!
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RedMahna



Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1512
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey duane... yeah i checked out that link as well the other day. thanks for posting it. i don't argue we have alt methods, and great ones at that. what i am saying is bringing it to the market and replacing gasoline likely won't happen til the goose lays the last golden egg, that's all.
we can go on indefinitely with combustion engines. the electric motor is still around. but a non-fuel firing contraption would displace loads of mfgs and consumers in costs, i suppose. a change that can't happen, maybe. too painful. if it can be avoided, wouldn't it?
i saved the link - did you take the course? are you involved in it? i'm interested to know from someone who has experience with them.

thx!!
red

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duane



Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 554
Location: western pennsylvania

PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here's an email update on the Alcohol Unanimous movement. the author has been on several radio shows in the last few months shaking (not stirred) things up. You don't have to ask their permission!!!

Dear Alcohol Revolutionary:
Thank you for your patience while we have proceeded through the third printing of Alcohol Can Be a Gas!, brought on by the recent media appearances I’ve done. At long last, the new printing will be leaving the bookbindery this week and will be in our warehouse a few days later. It will then take a few days to get the nearly one thousand pending orders packed up and out. They should start going out on September 9th.
Already, the responses to the radio shows have begun to cause change. So many people have applied for distillery permits in the last two months as a result of Alcohol Can Be a Gas! that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms has given up trying to process them!! They have been returning applications to our readers and telling them to reapply after they have built their distilleries!! We have actually turned Federal law on its head with our patriotic and democratic movement to make energy production the province of average people instead of MegaOilron. Obviously, if the Federal Government no longer requires you to get a permit and approval in advance, then no one can be busted for not getting a permit—because there’s nothing in the Federal code that says anything about how soon you have to apply for a permit after you have built your plant. If questioned by the ATF, your answer should be, “I dropped my permit application in the mail yesterday.” In essence, although the ATF would disagree, the need for a permit in advance to produce your own fuel appears not to be legally enforceable any longer.

There’s more. In the radio shows I recently did, which aired to more than 10 million people, I told people to start putting alcohol in their unmodified cars right now and eventually replace up to 50% of their gasoline. Gasoline sales almost immediately dipped, and, as a result, the oil companies have panicked and sent stories through the Petroleum Marketing Association to all fuel sellers telling them that they might be subject to fines if their stations permit customers to put E-85 in average everyday vehicles. But of course there’s no way that minimum-wage gas station employees are going to keep up telling customers that they can’t put E-85 in their cars. We have received email that at least one station made all employees sign declarations that they would stop people from using E-85 in unmodified vehicles, and one reader was actually told he couldn’t put E-85 in his tank. He was even told he couldn’t fill his gas cans with it. Of course, there are NO laws on the books to prevent people from using E-85 in their cars, whether they are flex-fuel or not. After all, you can buy Dry Gas, Fuel Injector Cleaner, and Octane Booster—products from the auto parts stores—all made essentially from alcohol. Buying alcohol at the pump is no different.
This is incredible. In a few weeks we have scared the stuffing out of MegaOilron with the prospect of Alcoholics Unanimous revolutionaries refusing to empty their wallets into oil company coffers! Just think, if only 30 million commuters, or 10 percent of America, stops buying gas it would mean cutting oil company income by $150 billion dollars per year (at $5 per gallon)—as much as they made in profit last year.

I know you have been excited by the prospects of what’s in the book. I appreciate your patience while we have tried to catch up with your demand for this information. Soon though, you’ll have your copy and you’ll be a card-carrying member of the ethanol revolution.

Share. Organize. Win.

David Blume
Executive Director
International Institute for Ecological Agriculture
309 Cedar Street #127
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
www.permaculture.com



---

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Fintan
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Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 8143

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Making Money With Alcohol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ubKcDWj0OA&feature=rela
ted

Quote:
David Blume Interviewed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Y08RSDP6s


Quote:
BUSTING THE ETHANOL MYTHS

Myth #1: It Takes More Energy to Produce Ethanol than You Get from It!

Most ethanol research over the past 25 years has been on the topic of energy returned on energy invested (EROEI). Public discussion has been dominated by the American Petroleum Institute’s aggressive distribution of the work of Cornell professor David Pimentel and his numerous, deeply flawed studies. Pimentel stands virtually alone in portraying alcohol as having a negative EROEI—producing less energy than is used in its production.

In fact, it’s oil that has a negative EROEI. Because oil is both the raw material and the energy source for production of gasoline, it comes out to about 20% negative. That’s just common sense; some of the oil is itself used up in the process of refining and delivering it (from the Persian Gulf, a distance of 11,000 miles in tanker travel).

The most exhaustive study on ethanol’s EROEI, by Isaias de Carvalho Macedo, shows an alcohol energy return of more than eight units of output for every unit of input—and this study accounts for everything right down to smelting the ore to make the steel for tractors.

But perhaps more important than EROEI is the energy return on fossil fuel input. Using this criterion, the energy returned from alcohol fuel per fossil energy input is much higher. In a system that supplies almost all of its energy from biomass, the ratio of return could be positive by hundreds to one.

Myth #2: There Isn’t Enough Land to Grow Crops for Both Food and Fuel!

According to the U.S. Department of Agriculture, the U.S. has 434,164,946 acres of “cropland”—land that is able to be worked in an industrial fashion (monoculture). This is the prime, level, and generally deep agricultural soil. In addition to cropland, the U.S. has 939,279,056 acres of “farmland.” This land is also good for agriculture, but it’s not as level and the soil not as deep. Additionally, there is a vast amount of acreage—swamps, arid or sloped land, even rivers, oceans, and ponds—that the USDA doesn’t count as cropland or farmland, but which is still suitable for growing specialized energy crops.

Of its nearly half a billion acres of prime cropland, the U.S. uses only 72.1 million acres for corn in an average year. The land used for corn takes up only 16.6% of our prime cropland, and only 7.45% of our total agricultural land.

Even if, for alcohol production, we used only what the USDA considers prime flat cropland, we would still have to produce only 368.5 gallons of alcohol per acre to meet 100% of the demand for transportation fuel at today’s levels. Corn could easily produce this level—and a wide variety of standard crops yield up to triple this. Plus, of course, the potential alcohol production from cellulose could dwarf all other crops.

Myth #3: Ethanol’s an Ecological Nightmare!

You’d be hard-pressed to find another route that so elegantly ties the solutions to the problems as does growing our own energy. Far from destroying the land and ecology, a permaculture ethanol solution will vastly improve soil fertility each year.

The real ecological nightmare is industrial agriculture. Switching to organic-style crop rotation will cut energy use on farms by a third or more: no more petroleum-based herbicides, pesticides, or chemical fertilizers. Fertilizer needs can be served either by applying the byproducts left over from the alcohol manufacturing process directly to the soil, or by first running the byproducts through animals as feed.

Myth #4: It’s Food Versus Fuel—We Should Be Growing Crops for Starving Masses, Not Cars!

Humankind has barely begun to work on designing farming as a method of harvesting solar energy for multiple uses. Given the massive potential for polyculture yields, monoculture-study dismissals of ethanol production seem silly when viewed from economic, energetic, or ecological perspectives.

Because the U.S. grows a lot of it, corn has become the primary crop used in making ethanol here. This is supposedly controversial, since corn is identified as a staple food in poverty-stricken parts of the world. But 87% of the U.S. corn crop is fed to animals. In most years, the U.S. sends close to 20% of its corn to other countries. While it is assumed that these exports could feed most of the hungry in the world, the corn is actually sold to wealthy nations to fatten their livestock. Plus, virtually no impoverished nation will accept our corn, even when it is offered as charity, due to its being genetically modified and therefore unfit for human consumption.

Also, fermenting the corn to alcohol results in more meat than if you fed the corn directly to the cattle. We can actually increase the meat supply by first processing corn into alcohol, which only takes 28% of the starch, leaving all the protein and fat, creating a higher-quality animal feed than the original corn.

Myth #5: Big Corporations Get All Those Ethanol Subsidies, and
Taxpayers Get Nothing in Return!


Between 1968 and 2000, oil companies received subsidies of $149.6 billion, compared to ethanol’s paltry $116.6 million. The subsidies alcohol did receive have worked extremely well in bringing maturity to the industry. Farmer-owned cooperatives now produce the majority of alcohol fuel in the U.S. Farmer-owners pay themselves premium prices for their corn and then pay themselves a dividend on the alcohol profit.

The increased economic activity derived from alcohol fuel production has turned out to be crucial to the survival of noncorporate farmers, and the amounts of money they spend in their communities on goods and services and taxes for schools have been much higher in areas with an ethanol plant. Plus, between $3 and $6 in tax receipts are generated for every dollar of ethanol subsidy. The rate of return can be much higher in rural communities, where re-spending within the community produces a multiplier factor of up to 22 times for each alcohol fuel subsidy dollar.

Myth #6: Ethanol Doesn’t Improve Global Warming! In Fact, It Pollutes the Air!

Alcohol fuel has been added to gasoline to reduce virtually every class of air pollution. Adding as little as 5–10% alcohol can reduce carbon monoxide from gasoline exhaust dramatically. When using pure alcohol, the reductions in all three of the major pollutants—carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides, and hydrocarbons—are so great that, in many cases, the remaining emissions are unmeasurably small. Reductions of more than 90% over gasoline emissions in all categories have been routinely documented for straight alcohol fuel.

It is true that when certain chemicals are included in gasoline, addition of alcohol at 2–20% of the blend can cause a reaction that makes these chemicals more volatile and evaporative. But it’s not the ethanol that’s the problem; it’s the gasoline.

Alcohol carries none of the heavy metals and sulfuric acid that gasoline and diesel exhausts do. And straight ethanol’s evaporative emissions are dramatically lower than gasoline’s, no more toxic than what you’d find in the air of your local bar.

As for global warming, the production and use of alcohol neither reduces nor increases the atmosphere’s CO2. In a properly designed system, the amount of CO2 and water emitted during fermentation and from exhaust is precisely the amount of both chemicals that the next year’s crop of fuel plants needs to make the same amount of fuel once again.

Alcohol fuel production actually lets us reduce carbon dioxide emissions, since the growing of plants ties up many times more carbon dioxide than is created in the production and use of the alcohol. Converting from a hydrocarbon to a carbohydrate economy could quickly reduce atmospheric carbon dioxide.

http://www.alcoholcanbeagas.com/node/490


The Real Reason for Prohibition

Quote:
WORLD'S FIRST HOME ETHANOL SYSTEM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-vOw8Owo1M&NR=1

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ManAtTheWindow



Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 247
Location: Inverness, Scotland

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've ordered his book and I'm told that it's on its way so I'm looking forward to reading it. Essentially, it seems to me that what Mr. Blume is proposing could change the world for the better overnight if we could spread sufficient awareness of what appears to be a very real solution to the so-called energy crisis and global warming issues. I'll reserve final comment until I've studied the book but I'm very impressed with the presentations that I've heard so far by Mr. Blume.

I brought this subject up last night around a campfire after gigging at a festival in the north of England. These are the types of people that I would expect to have some awareness of such a remarkable alternative system and yet no-one had heard of David Blume or his proposition. Nevertheless, there was considerable enthusiasm and an immediate grasp of the elegance of his ideas. I suspect that many of his websites will receive extra attention in the coming days.

One caveat that immediately struck me when listening to Blume on an American internet radio station was that the American legal system (or what's left of it!) contains loopholes that allow individual citizens to apply for a permit to distill up to to 5000 gallons of ethanol per annum for what is called "research" purposes. I'd be extremely surprised if there was an equivalent loophole in European law. As I understand it, the American loophole was only introduced during the Carter administration in, I think, 1979. Thing to do number one would then be to make it possible to allow European citizenry to distill their own alcohol fuel without being convicted by the authorities.

On the one hand, this would involve an attack on the very core of the Establishment's vested self-interests. But on the other hand, there has never been a better time to argue the case for allowing the citizenry to develop their own sustainable energy sources. Petrol is becoming a luxury item, war is being fought worldwide for the sake of oil supplies and both of these problems could be eradicated at one stroke if candidates stood at an election on a single ticket of Anti-Prohibition, for want of a better label.

Fintan - Any chance of interviewing David Blume for a future radio prog? Or, if you already have and I've missed it, would you be so kind as to post a link? Thanks.

Now's the time and now's the hour.

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LonePunman



Joined: 09 Jan 2008
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2008 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact should not be ignored that you may have to change your fuel injectors and make a few more simple modifications to your car/truck/SUV to burn ethanol properly:

http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths

The total cost to convert your car to run on any mixture of ethanol or gasoline is about $500.

Also, many older vintage cars cannot run on ethanol, because their gaskets and seals will be corroded. Modern cars are pretty immune to that.
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Dr. Evil



Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 83
Location: Deep in the heart of Cheney country.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is an interesting topic since it seems so hard to avoid driving. I live in southeastern Wyoming and we get some horrendous winters that soon I won't be able to ride my bike to get places.
Fintan, thanks for the video on the real reason for prohibition. It explains so much why they wanted alcohol out of the picture: get us entrenched in oil!

I don't want to derail this thread but would like to ask any of our members about diesel cars. As I understand, diesel cars have been used for many years in Europe and are getting cleaner and many European models are getting very high miles per gallon. What are peoples' thoughts on the cleaner burning diesel cars?

I found this interesting. Ford has a high mpg diesel car called the Fiesta ECOnetic that will go on sale in Europe but doesn't think it will sell in the U.S. because people here see it as "old tech":
Quote:
The 65-mpg car Ford won't sell in US

The Fiesta ECOnetic could compete with hybrids and help remake Ford's image. But big obstacles are keeping the vehicle out of the US market.

By BusinessWeek

If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh, yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F, news, msgs), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.

Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM, news, msgs) and Honda Motor (HMC, news, msgs) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe.
Full Story


I live in the land of large, and I mean large pickup trucks. We have a large population that is in to horses and rodeo, so they need trucks for towing but I am just amazed at how many drive large trucks and SUVs for no reason other than status. I myself just want something that is economical burns fuel efficiently and cleanly.

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ManAtTheWindow



Joined: 29 Oct 2007
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Location: Inverness, Scotland

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Evil wrote:

I don't want to derail this thread but would like to ask any of our members about diesel cars. As I understand, diesel cars have been used for many years in Europe and are getting cleaner and many European models are getting very high miles per gallon. What are peoples' thoughts on the cleaner burning diesel cars?


Firstly, no diesel engine will burn as cleanly as an alcohol-fuelled car. The emissions from an alcohol engine are supremely clean - practically nothing other than CO2 and water vapour.

Secondly, with a diesel engine you're still at the mercy of the oil companies and if they either increase the price or cut off the supply you're left with a problem.

A third and very important point is that an alcohol engine burns so cleanly that no carbon deposits accumulate in the chambers and therefore there is significantly less wear and tear on the engine. According to Blume, an engine that had run on alcohol for a million miles was stripped and examined. The original machining marks could still be clearly seen on the inside of the cylinders. You could re-assemble that engine and confidently expect it to run for at least another million miles.

In the alcohol-as-fuel proposition there is absolutely no net increase in emissions of so-called greenhouse gases - even as the CO2 is being released through combustion, it's being absorbed into the next season's crops. Somewhere (if I can find the link, I'll post it) I heard Blume talking about an emissions test on an alcohol engine where the testers thought their equipment wasn't working because the needles weren't registering. Then they removed the probes from the exhaust and set them down in front of the engine intakes. Suddenly, the needles all started moving. This showed that the emissions were actually cleaner than the surrounding air. (This test took place in California! LOL)

Moreover, if you have any kind of distillation equipment, you will never face problems with supply. For as long as the sun continues to shine, plants will grow and supply the sugars and starches necessary for alcohol production.

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Dr. Evil



Joined: 31 Aug 2008
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Location: Deep in the heart of Cheney country.

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ManAtTheWindow, thanks for the info. I hardly know anything about engines and vehicles, so this has been very informative. This type of implementation in the engine would really help with the smog problem of major cities
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Last edited by Dr. Evil on Mon Sep 22, 2008 12:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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James D



Joined: 16 Dec 2006
Posts: 958

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey ManAtTheWindow, maybe you should contact this guy (and local Scot) Antony Berretti, who travelled around Europe on frying pan oil waste from restaurants.

Across Europe on vegetable power
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_/ai_n16652088

http://www.macharsoft.co.uk/rmp/freefuel.html

I gave him what waste from our frying we had, which wasn't much at that moment, in the restaurant where I worked, as he passed through Santiago de Compostela.
I know it's a different fuel and all, but as he's relatively close to you and has experience using alternative fuels and converting engines etc. - who knows, maybe he could help you get something started.
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leon



Joined: 22 Aug 2008
Posts: 1046
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I happen to know a bit about the topic - expiremented myself with the small quantity of production. It is really easy and you dont need to have a fancy equipment like the one mentioned here - a $400 investment in a midium-sized still will do it.
The REAL problem, however, is the price of sugar. I live in Dominican Republic - sugar capital of the Caribbean - and the best I could do here is 11 pesos (around 32 cents) per pound. (May be I could do a little better bying tons of that stuff, but not by much).
A 100 lb bag of sugar produces (after week fermentation) around 20 liters of 90% pure ethanol - around 5.3 gallons. So you need around $6 of sugar to make one gallon of ethanol. (And I am not counting the price of yeast however cheap or the price of fuel for distillation).
The only feasable solution is not to use sugar, but to grow sugar cane (I could do it here) yourself, but that is another issue.

The price of $1 per gallon seems totally unrealistic.
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