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9/11 Without Tinfoil 3: The Next Level
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Robert



Joined: 07 Feb 2006
Posts: 392

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Sitting back and cogitated.
.... Mr. Green hell i haven't time for that i've got pretty girls to flatter,old men to joke with,food to try,crows to laugh at,sunrises to watch,sunsets to miss and all my peculiar interests to indulge in.They're all in my pleasurable earth.

Still Diggin come back join us in the muck.
Your writing is clear as a bell.
Skipping to the final level,how greedy
Smile
Levels?nice touch of glamour to bring in the punters....you have to appropriate some of the advertising tools in this line of business...

Robert
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RedMahna



Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1512
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey still diggin... and everyone else:
i may have created an atmosphere of ambivalence or animosity by my previous post, and i apologize if it has caused any member to retreat from here, this forum.
not to credit myself with others' choice-making entirely... i have to remember i ain't all that.

first, i'm extremely happy to have found this forum. fintan & kathy seem like cool people. it must be a lot of work to commit to running this forum and putting out the radio shows. i have no idea what fintan does for income, whether this is it, and other journalism work. whatever it is, it's gotta be time-consuming, cos it's taken up quite a bit of my time just contributing my 2 cents and keeping up with others' posts, so i don't remain as ignorant as i've been all my life.

i've been on this forum for a few weeks, tops. prior to that, i've spent a lot of energy trying to not only figure out what is wrong with 9/11 that made me suspicious to begin with, but also what is wrong with this freaking world in general.

the best thing so far about this place, the next level, is that i've finally "met" (via cyberspace, if that's legitimate) like-minded people, most of them quite logical, and with a bit of self-deprication & humor, as well. i've learned a tremendous amount in a short period of time. i had also, like i suppose many of us had, gotten more savvy in the way i research material, and have gotten sharper at deducing crap from news.

i am restless, too, stilldiggin'... believe me. i find myself challenging the readers here to go yet another level, as you can tell from some of my posts, especially the previous one in this string.

but i ain't giving up easily. i'll keep pushing til we get a few or hopefully all of us on board with more concrete ideas as to what real actions to begin taking. i've posed the statement to fintan already, whether he would ask me to take my inciting of our members elsewhere, and he has not - as of yet - urged me to do so.

so i think it may be ok to keep investigating and persuing and debating WHAT TO DO about all this realization. and it's not so much new evidence about this new world order, or whatever we want to call it - corruption gone wild, perhaps...? this forum, i think, has more to do with how much we all know instinctively that has been going on for so damn long, and that we seem to be somewhat on the same page.

the question is, how safe (like that's a concept) is it to go into details online?

and i am willing to hear from anyone via PM, as well.

ps - when does a journalist become an activist or a political movement? don't know if either were fintan's intention, but how can you offer this forum, the next level, without imagining someone might want to go a level further?

pps - this is not to negatively criticize the forum. if the seeds are planted because of it, then that can only be good.

red

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indigitydogdignation



Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 313

PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Robert:.... hell i haven't time for that i've got pretty girls to flatter,old men to joke with,food to try,crows to laugh at,sunrises to watch,sunsets to miss and all my peculiar interests to indulge in.They're all in my pleasurable earth.


Good answer. How do I become like you?
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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this response will answer some questions posed by others. (I made some minor cosmetic changes, like clarifying my insult of liberal antiwar protesters.)

Me, I'm doing the best I can. This is for the long haul. I don't want to get burned out and I don't expect that Big results will come quickly.
One -- due to the quirkiness of figuring out the psyops, but mostly ...
Two -- The real reason why this is S O --- S L O W is that we don't own CNN or our own cable channel. (Fintan: Maybe when Al-Qaeda gets their own cable channel, we can lease time from them?)

However, I hope that when I put a word out there, it moves people and it travels due to relevance and my own little shock and awe.

Today, some people scheduled World Can't Wait on a streetcorner in Akron. Some local liberal antiwar people. I showed up with my materials.

I didn't use a sign. What I had was flyers with my one-page Quiz, and I hawked them to anyone who would take them. "I researched it myself!"

I also had stunning artwork by Mazen Kerbaj, a Lebanese artist/Jazz musician I found linked on Another Day in the Empire website. In one case, I held up his drawing for a couple young ladies in a car and they flagged me over.
Stunning drawings.
http://www.kerbaj.com/visuals.html
Quote:
here's a few samples
the one I handed out the most for propaganda effect:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72795424@N00/213301425/ we are fucking Arabs
COLOR http://www.flickr.com/photos/72795424@N00/218853937/ a daytime nightmare
COLOR http://kerbaj.com/pics/drawings%20&%20paintings/2004/06selfportrait.jpg Self Portrait
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72795424@N00/199680787/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72795424@N00/196555252/ 'We are tomorrows dead'
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72795424@N00/204361909/ my brother walid (to my mother): i don't understand how you did to raise us in 15 years of war.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72795424@N00/204349557/ the martyr's mother
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72795424@N00/203713475/ pieta
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72795424@N00/201738512/ after 19 days i started to cry
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72795424@N00/213301428/ Arabic cap
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72795424@N00/209463750/ yesterday i slept early... at 2 am ... and ... today i woke up early... at 6 am with the melody of the israeli alarm clock
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/8040/3351/1600/43.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/8040/3351/1600/25.jpg
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/8040/3351/1600/21.jpg "i don't know how i slept for 2 hours."
http://www.flickr.com/photos/72795424@N00/199680789/ "i am still functional" until when?

The entire collection is REALLY good, some in English, some French, some Arabic.


Anyhow, disseminating info, I began with the Federal Police at the Federal Building. They were pretty much not believing anything I offered, not believing news stories, discrediting all sources, etc. I forgot to mention the one on the US State Dept website. At one point, I told them these were court reports, and when they dismissed that, I asked them if they believed police reports.

However they all took my flyer, and one came over to take it AFTER the others started dissing me. He ended up staying there on guard, which turned out to be LUCKY. (Also, a woman from the Fed building came out and spoke with some of us, and told her that workers in the building were frightened of us, they were warned, not to go down there.)

After about an hour, some greasy ugly guys, Eric Cartman in some biker t-shirt, came by to taunt, and began when he called me a "limp-dick mfr". I laughed and gave him a squirrely look, and said "Hey I'll debate you and discuss things, but not like that." That instant, the Federal Officer (Vidmar) SHUT HIM DOWN and told him that we have First Amendment rights and that he was out of line. He wanted to know why he didn't have "free speech" to call us names. I said, "Technically that's assault (to walk up and start cursing and threatening someone), but I'll talk with you." I sorta pulled the heat off the other sign holders, who seemed to be not arguing effectively with the bully, either not responding, or responding to personal attacks with reverse personal attacks, and this guy was obviously practiced at gross personal attacks.

He cut the harsh language, but kept taunting like a nasty 3rd grader, not even saying anything myah myah myah but not menacing anymore.

I'm glad I was there, because the Liberals response to conflict was kinda weak ... which is what he was hoping for. Basically, I did an Alex Jones on him, not the fearmongering but the overpowering rapidfire questions. I won't do that with everyone, but this guy deserved it. He said "You're trying to stop the war, arent you?" "Saddam, etc. what about all those dead bodies blah blah ...." I said "We HIRED Saddam to be an assassin in 1959, to KILL Leftists like us", he asked me about "do you have receipts". I just grinned like he was a moron, and kept firing, of course I don't have receipts, it's in the news.

I love using the one about the guy Ali Mohammed who was Special Forces Green Beret AND Al-Qaeda at the same time, who admitted killing Americans and was convicted. "Do we KILL him because he's a terrorist, or SUPPORT him because he's the troops?" I guess we SUPPORT him because the USG set him free. http://www.takeoverworld.info/index.html#hell

He started to say, "well sometimes some people have to die so more can live", I reacted with incredulity, and I said "YOU'RE a COMMUNIST!!" (classic JBS definiition of 'collectivist'). "Did you say we had to KILL AMERICANS and BOMB the USS COLE to SAVE AMERICANS?!!" By this time he was reeling. When he caught wind and stopped with the Saddam stuff, he admitted he couldn't answer any of my questions and didn't know.

Looking back, he was NOT expecting this. He was expecting a bunch of weenie liberals he'd get his rocks off intimidating.

"We have to KILL the TERRORISTS, and stop FUNDING THEM AND HELPING THEM!!!" I out-radicaled him, basically. hee hee It wuz fun. It was neat to do it as a live demonstration, if anyone might learn an effective way to handle these schmucks ... with hard information. (One of our guys thanked me, I hope I did the right thing.)

(I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, I just picked up this style from seeing others, Jones in particular, but I get so sick of seeing and hearing good people get pushed around, being unable to respond effectively, getting creamed and ridiculed. And I'm sick of FAKES who purposely act like wimpy airhead liberals on TV.)

(By the way, setting aside Jones fearmongering, and still understanding that if he's JBS that means he's CIA ... this Bill Hicks "impression" he did is pretty good for entertainment value and for style, IMO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MNdfiBIuCc )

Anyhow, Cartman's quiet-but-large friend stuck his hand out and asked for a flyer from me, and they walked away.

I couldn't really do "THIRD LEVEL" reasoning with Cartman, obviously. I could only do what amounts to "Infowars level".

I was able to do practice more breaking thru the psyops with the "Democrats" in the crowd, "streetcorner Third Level", whatever that's worth. It takes practice. I asked them what will happen when the Democrats win --- same shit, same PATRIOT Act, same NAFTA, same military tribunals, everything! I could talk in mostly shorthand to the Left who was present, they're pretty hip. Dems and Repubs are like Hannity vs. Colmes ... they're both on the same friggin' show.

The Fed Cop ended up being pretty nice. He called me over and explained why he shut the guy down, emphasized to me about my First Amendment Rights, and how we can have differences of opinion. Great guy! I shook his hand and thanked him, once or twice. I also told him about Hitler and the 1933 coup attempt, Smedley Butler, and how these people in power are the same crowd who funded Hitler. I think he knew something about that.

IMO, a big part of the reason this movement is S O --- S L O W is that liberal antiwar activists do not get why the war is a HOAX, because Sept 11 is a Hoax, a psychological operation from the get-go, the Left is not typically skilled towards opposing real confrontational people or able to offer reasonable answers that might appeal to the mainstream 'security' mindset. (Kevin Barrett did a decent job with Sean Hannity.)

If we were TRULY under attack from Al-Qaeda would I (probably) want to KILL THEM? Of course I would! I think I would. Depends, but VERY LIKELY. Would I want to LOSE and have some jackass Taliban guy measuring the length of my beard and whacking me with a stick? HELL NO! I could agree with the yee-hah neocons on that concept. (I think it's important to agree on common sense.)

Maybe, maybe not, depends on circumstances, but quite possibly KILLING would be the right answer. Considering the Dave Emory perspective on actual Islamo-Fascism, you don't let real Fascists get the upper hand. (Many antiwar people prior to World War 2 were pro-Nazi who wanted to keep the US out of the way of Germany. The irony is they are the same goons as today's neocons.)

On the other hand, if Al-Qaeda people were just a bunch of radicals willing to settle for Libertarian anti-NAFTA in the Middle East, not trying to institute Sharia Law worldwide, then I'd sooner negotiate and even apologize, and be LARGE about that apology. In other words, I'd let them know "we CAN fight you, we CAN kill you, but we choose not to if you are willing to play fair. We do what we want, you do what you want." That's a possible diplomatic approach, and a libertarian free-market ideal. Make Commerce, not War. America and the West might even influence people by example instead of by fear.

But otherwise, KILL KILL KILL, if it was really down to survival.


But that's a fairy tale, as we know. I just want to be clear with certain people about which side of the fairy tale I'm on.

My point is, I understand why people feel that way, the knee-jerk reaction. Liberal antiwar types don't have these answers. Due to lib media talking points, interfaced with Neocon talking points, those warrior types in society are left with the impression that Libs are a fifth column that wants to destroy America, by surrendering to terrorists out of either some hatred for America or fuzzy loopy "hippie" stereotype belief system, like if we sent flowers to Osama, everyone could just groove. I try to correct that stereotype, while supporting peace.


Anyhow, I had fun, and MANY people took my flyers and Mazen's artwork.
Hopefully, it can make some difference.

(I wish I had a recording of that live session with Cartman.) Laughing


Last edited by dilbert_g on Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:15 pm; edited 8 times in total
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RedMahna



Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 1512
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for that wonderful post gary. i think i'm gonna start making some flyers and a big poster later today - after i finally get some sleep.
i have also been writing extremely long letters to both senator warner and rep bob goodlatte, tho i think they either don't really read them or they don't really care. (perhaps better that they don't take it out of context when i say things like we citizens have the right to remove our government when it no longer governs us well.)

i state things very politely and as intelligently as possible when sending my comments to congressmen. i normally get form letters back that seem to address my complaints in general terms.

but this streetcorner approach will definitely be my next move, for the near future. i hope my experience is as "uneventful" as yours, gary - meaning i don't get shot by the "sportsmen for george allen" supporters.

a couple of you guys have sparked my will. thanks indigity & gary.
i'll also continue to keep making noise for action, here & offline (one of those mystery buzzwords for the ptb, shhhhhhh).

red

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indigitydogdignation



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A local Peace and Justice group protests weakly at the Bangor federal building, (every Tuesday at 5:00pm.) I joined them once and it left a sour taste in my mouth, but I've hit them up for signatures many times and have taken the opportunity to ask them (as I do all politically-minded types) if they'd researched the 9-11 attacks. By and large, they're not strong enough to face the reality of insider complicity and they especially discourage any speculation about where democratic or green party leaders stand on the issue: "Well, I only asked because most everyone who's researched the subject has come around to believing it's an inside job." Pressing the issue any further than that can sometimes draw some serious hostility - more so than from the average rank and file Bushite. It's a strange thing, (and I forgot to mention this,) but I've come closer to being beaten by pacifist types than by any others. Thankfully they don't hold grudges.
Mainstream leftists are closer to the truth than their right-wing counterparts, (on many issues, I'd say.) 9-11 truth puts them face to face with the hard-wired shortcommings of their political identity - and it's a POWERFUL identity. They're roped into a concept of 'cool' that's been carefully crafted by wealthy foundations and oil-rich endowments. You can challenge Bush without challenging the Bushite. By contrast, Chomsky and others have guru status among their following and will breath FIRE at you through their minions.
Unfortunately, Libertarians, Constitutionalists and other conservative/quaisi-conservative third-party types don't protest - it's not part of their culture. I think it's safe to say that the spin doctors have dedicated more brain power toward disinforming, diverting and compartmentalizing the left than any other group, if only to keep real issues off the streets. Truth is a tough pill to swallow for people who've been suckered so badly. When I gather signatures, I'm constantly questioning pollitically conscious people about 9-11, and I'd say the average Peace and Justice liberal is less likely to 'get it' than your average Joe. I'll have to talk to them sometime soon. Maybe they've made some progress lately. One of their core members is ex-intel - he doesn't like me coming around.
Sen. Susan Colllins is also a regular at the Bangor federal building. As you might know, she's the Chairman of the Senate Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee, so I asked her once, as she was walking toward the post office, if she was satisfied with FEMA's report on the collapse of World Trade Center 7. She heard me loud and clear but didn't answer - until she came out of the building: "I don't belive in any conspiracies, except involving al Qaeda." An hour later one of the security guards told me a woman had complained to the local police. (I was on a public side walk in front of the Fed building.)
When you see a spook in real life, it's important to let them know you're aware of what's going on and are not affraid to speak out, even if you accomplish nothing else.
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MichaelC



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why is it that, in the Nick Berg video, the 'arabs' all are built like - and move like - big fat whitetrash american prison guards? And how come Berg is wearing the same orange prison jumpsuit that is the standard issue atttire in American prison? Just wondering..... Must be like Fintan pointed out - they're just telling us: "We did it and we will do it again and fuck you all!" Makes sense to me. But there's still more of 'us' than there is of 'them' Remember that. And take courage from it.
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Continuity



Joined: 16 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

indigitydogdignation said:
Quote:
[....]I asked her once, as she was walking toward the post office, if she was satisfied with FEMA's report on the collapse of World Trade Center 7. She heard me loud and clear but didn't answer - until she came out of the building: "I don't belive in any conspiracies, except involving al Qaeda."

My bog, that *is* a spooky answer - It's like she's well aware of where you're coming from, and almost definately knows a hell of a lot more than she'd ever tell *you*, but that answer is very revealing in and of itself, IMHO...

Can't have no thoughtcrime, can we?

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indigitydogdignation



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Continuity:My bog, that *is* a spooky answer - ........ (and so on....)


Well, sorry to dissappoint you, C. I spoke to the nature of these things in the next line though, (and btw, I actually work at the Federal building a few days a week, circulating petitions. I can't afford to be kicked off, ...unless I want to find a real job - no thanks.)
For those who value form over function, here it is again - the beauty of blandness, just for you:
"When you see a spook in real life, it's important to let them know you're aware of what's going on and are not affraid to speak out, even if you accomplish nothing else."
"...nothing else" is exactly what's going on here, C! Deal with it! Twisted Evil
....and Sen. Collins is a spook, in case you haven't noticed. Her vapid veneer is thicker than W's. Think it over.
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Continuity



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

indigitydogdignation said:
Quote:
Well, sorry to dissappoint you, C.[....]

Megetsthefeeling that you misunderstood my statement, somehow. I was merely saying that her reply was indeed a spooky one to your perfectly reasonable question. Also, that the nature of her answer to your straight-forward question was quite revealing in and of itself.

What did you think I was saying? Question

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dilbert_g
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"I don't belive in any conspiracies, except involving al Qaeda."


Whoa, I'm not gonna risk commenting on that. I concur with both you guys. I take it as: Hey Sen. Collins, fuck you. Oh yeah? Hey indigity, fuck off.

Quote:
Pressing the issue any further than that can sometimes draw some serious hostility - more so than from the average rank and file Bushite.

certainly, though not so badly except with Joe Finan, 'liberal' radio host

Quote:
the average Peace and Justice liberal is less likely to 'get it' than your average Joe

BIG TIME. Random clerks get it, people who are full time activists don't.

I don't want to PRESS the issue, but I usually ASK my quiz question:
DO YOU KNOW WHO CREATED AL-QAEDA?

Just updated and re-worded.
http://www.Takeoverworld.info/qaeda-quiz.pdf
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indigitydogdignation



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Continuity: Megetsthefeeling that you misunderstood my statement, somehow.......


You know, it occured to me that maybe I did. Then again, if I were reading a personal account of an encounter with 'the dard side,' probably I'd expect a little more pizzaze too. Personally, I didn't see much meaning in the exchange either, I just passed it on.

Quote:
dilbert gWhoa, I'm not gonna risk commenting on that. I concur with both you guys. I take it as: Hey Sen. Collins, fuck you. Oh yeah? Hey indigity, fuck off.


Right on

Quote:
dilbert g: ...I usually ASK my quiz question:
DO YOU KNOW WHO CREATED AL-QAEDA?


That's a good approach. It'd be a lot better were it not for the garganchuin thought stopper they hurled at us a month or two after 9-11 - " ho ho, WE know what's going on, huh, we've read Blowback!

....but yes, 'always in the form of a question' seems to be most effective.' "Who created Al-Qaeda" leads the more unsuspecting types in at the lihop level, which is a good starting point for some. For those already at LIHOP, I remind them that mainstream and alternative 'left-wing'/'right-wing' news is often written by the same interests, sometimes by the same individuals serving both sides, (certainly the case with Mother Jones and Fox News) ...that we're being massively lied to; leading Republicans and Democrats are double-teaming us... (Most people have some intuitive sense of that anyway.) ...."The people in this administration and in our national security apparatus who orchestrated 9-11 would never have dared something on that scale unless they had complete confidence in the cooperation of leading Democrats to help them cover it up."
(Most people have lingering suspicions about 9-11, having watched it unfold on the tube. I like to pick away at their doubts.) I ask people who know nothing at all to start their reserach with the collapse of WTC7, and I send them to WTC7.net for the basic info. Confirmation that a third building collapsed so perfectly on 9-11 is enough to wake people up a little and perk their interest.
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