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dilbert_g
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 Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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I have had discussions off this board with some anarcho-communist people talking about that style of society, where everyone receives everything they need and everyone contributes what they can. Things which did not get built or completed were apparently not needed. That was the answer to the question of uncompensated work.
However I cannot at this time stretch my mind this far. I think that most people demand compensation for work, for effort, at very least they demand compensation for unpleasant work. Would it be possible to trick people into finding unpleasant work pleasureable, so they would be willing to engage in it eagerly, or out of boredom or affinity?
I believe that this would require the evolution of the new "Communist Man" who revels in work and effort and strain to benefit others -- including the dirtiest, toughtest work. And this would need to be the vast majority of society, it seems. Or maybe not. Could MOST people be lazy asses, and 10% eager beavers, and 2% super-mascochistic eager beavers engaged in deeply-unpleasant work, or all people willingly taking turns at deeply unpleasant work and still have a functioning society? How could this be developed?
Given that the world needs levels of production arrived at by vast Industry and especially by Automated Industry, but also manual labor ... what I see happening in a non-compensation society is what happens in crowded regions when an economy stops working due to "economic conditions", whether accidental or induced. Some affinity-related production develops at the roots. People do informal barter, i.e. help one another. But mostly starvation and deprivation occur as the larger levels of productive activity grinds to a halt. Often this is followed by violence.
Many people like to volunteer for plushy work where there is compensation in fun or prestige, few like to volunteer for dirty, ugly, or backbreaking work. Some like Doctors sans Borders travel to help people but how many travel without compensation to dig wells and latrines? How many would do anything for no pay, besides sport fishing or watching TV or other forms of play? (I was engaged before in a dialogue about work vs. play. One conclusion was that this thing we call "work" consists of activity people are "partially engaged in" i.e. not enthusiastically and with pleasure, whereas people get "fully engaged" in "play", even if play involves a lot of work. For situations of best congruence (?) what is typically called "work" is so enjoyable it amounts to play for the individuals so engaged such that they would do the work without pay if their compensation-needs were otherwise met -- but I do not think this can ever be achieved universally.)
There are always some obsessive-complusives (usually annoying types) who would throw themselves into unpaid problem-solving and maintenance, clean freaks, whatnot. (I was picking up some random trash in a parking lot yesterday while on my way to my car, but I skipped the pile of beer bottles in the corner.) I think an insufficient percentage of people would participate in uncompensated labor, especially unpleasant uncompensated labor.
Now Schoenman recently mentioned that right now with the elimination of all the graft and waste that goes into military production in the U.S., including the Dept of Energy and their nukes, including Dept of State exporting arms, etc., and without the vast concentration of wealth (top 5000 people) owning to what amounts to sophisticated forms of "theft" backed up by force of violence leading to extraction of labor and resources of others, there already exists enough productive capacity to feed, house, and educate every American for free. I don't think he said "the world" but he I think he said "America", so "the world" would not require much more production, or little more distribution. This was not fleshed out as "a proposal" per se, but an idea of how much is being stolen by force.
Given these figures, it would seem within the realm of possibility for people to be able to *LIVE* for free, then *WORK* for additional compensation to acquire extra goods which are not necessities for living, fancy appliances, services, entertainment, etc. BLING. This would seem to be a fair balance. This would not require first changing Man or Society by force to a different type, or to force egalitarianism on all by threat of violence. This would still rely on desire and greed for MORE. It would simply mean that people desiring more stuff would persue productive means to acquire it.
Theft would diminish I think (not disappear 100%) if everyone had what they needed. Theft (including "legalized" theft) is mostly a byproduct of a false mentality of scarcity, even though it's often practiced by those least affected by scarcity, and many people who experience profound scarcity would never stoop to theft, either due to honor or due to empathy.
I don't think this would SOLVE EVERY PROBLEM, but I think it would bring the human race closer to perfection. For any anti-communists reading this in the future, I do not see this as promoting communism, but rather
a) modifying the current system of "hijacked communism for the few" to communism for the many (re. Chomsky discussing how the pigs' trough of Federal contracts is seen by Business as "capitalism")
b) outlawing various forms of sanctioned plunder by the IMF and other forms of economic hijacking of the weaker by the stronger
c) helping to implement sane Abundant Living globally, not as some frou-frou notion but as a very practical reality
(One "communist" sort of agenda which would probably be necessary would be birth-rate planning, population control, and the discouragement of birth-rates in excess of death rates. I doubt this would have to be enforced by some government edict, but I do think it's simply a Natural tendency that any animal population with access to unlimited resources tends towards unlimited multiplication. Man is not divorced from being an animal, nor should we be.
The vast rise in world population seems to be generally caused by a variety of archaic cultural artifacts which lead to a birth rate based on needs and scenarios which no longer exist, coupled with vast improvements in diet and advanced medical technology. Seeing no cause for population to plateau on it's own -- other than changes in mass culture on the topic of birth and children and large families -- other than a sense of suffocation in world populated like New York City or Calcutta -- it seems to make sense to me that since we are so willing to modify or defeat Nature in so many other areas including vigorously beating back death, then we should not shy away from addressing Nature in terms of birth rates as if this one topic is a sacred private concern beyond public interest. Nor do I think that poverty, starvation, and disease -- nor depleted uranium -- are proper methods of population control. I am not advocating forced public invasion of privacy, nor other harsh measures. I think we are creative enough to come up with useful measures to influence our collective viewpoint. This is already occurring -- most or many people no longer desire large families.) |
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Ta Seti
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 53
Location: Brighton, UK
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| Posted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: A Future Worth Having? |
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Ta Seti, what about publishing the book 2084? How do you think that
will be received? I love the irony.[/quote]
Yup, 2084 certainly has potential although there are things out there close to it. It does have memorability and practically tells you what it is about straight off the bat, even better, it has a "You're trumped!" feeling to it. It might just work - we should pencil in the idea.
The main Dystopics are:
Brave New World - Aldous Huxley
1984 - George Orwell
Anthem - Ayn Rand
Perhaps we could learn from any existing Utopian works although I am not currently aware what is out there and applicable, if any. I'll be looking in to it. e.g.:
Great Utopian/Dystopian Novels
http://www.amazon.com/Great-Utopian-Dystopian-Novels/lm/3JUKVMUGCB17R
The book idea might come later on when we have a good all around appreciation of what we are aiming for (we need an excellent grip on our subject to make it work). Not sure how we would tackle it, we could try and modularise it somehow after storyboarding it ... let's see what else we need to do and how we get on with it. I wouldn't want us to overburden ourselves this early on. Nonetheless, it would be quite a prize.
By the way, G. Edward Griffin has a web site focussing on freedom: http://www.freedomforceinternational.org/ |
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RedMahna
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 916
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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I had to resort to wikipedia on various terminolgy for this thread... such as "liberty," "commune," "utopia," etc...
There is a book of interest, I'll try to find it for myself... This is what wiki says of it:
| Quote: | Utopia (book)
Utopia is largely based on Plato's Republic. It is a perfect version of Republic wherein the beauties of society reign (eg: equalism and a general pacifist attitude), although its citizens are all ready to fight if need be. The evils of society, eg: poverty and misery, are all removed. It has few laws, no lawyers and rarely sends its citizens to war, but hires mercenaries from among its war-prone neighbors (these mercenaries were deliberately sent into dangerous situations in the hope that the more war-like populations of all surrounding countries will be weeded out, leaving peaceful peoples). The society encourages tolerance of all religions, but not of atheism, since the people believe that a man must fear some God, else he shall act evilly and their society will weaken. Some readers have chosen to accept this imaginary society as the realistic blueprint for a working nation, while others have postulated More intended nothing of the like. Some maintain the position that More's Utopia functions only on the level of a satire, a work intended to reveal more about England than about an idealistic society. This interpretation is bolstered by the title of the book and nation, and its apparent derivation from the Greek for "no place" and "good place": "Utopia" is a compound of the syllable eu, meaning good, and topos, meaning place. But the homonymous prefix ou, with the meaning "no," also resonates in the word: the perfectly "good place" is really "no place."
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Anyway, as much as this kind of utopia may sound pleasant to some folks in and out of BFN, the idea of liberty, freedom of choice, personal desires, etc, may not all be inline with everyone else's kind of lifestyle.... on the planet, or on your own block, or even in your own family.
So then, what could the utopian-idea people do? Force it on the others?
Of course not.
I think history has given us at least a good handful of enlighted men and women, on the politico-religio-spiritual plane. Whether real or mythical, (and some were real, like MLK Jr, unless there's a Civil Rights Denial movement I don't know of), their message has always included "Know Thy Self," and portrayed the use of "Leading by example."
For me, and speaking only for myself, I find that personal struggle for the attainment of right thought and action is the solution, and where all good things begin. That is a start, but an enormous start that I believe cannot be skipped prior to bringing anyone else onboard. In all things.
Gary's quote:
| Quote: | I don't think this would SOLVE EVERY PROBLEM, but I think it would bring the human race closer to perfection. For any anti-communists reading this in the future, I do not see this as promoting communism, but rather
a) modifying the current system of "hijacked communism for the few" to communism for the many (re. Chomsky discussing how the pigs' trough of Federal contracts is seen by Business as "capitalism")
b) outlawing various forms of sanctioned plunder by the IMF and other forms of economic hijacking of the weaker by the stronger
c) helping to implement sane Abundant Living globally, not as some frou-frou notion but as a very practical reality |
This is much more practical, and even possible, I feel.
How? By becoming active and persuing public life through the normal political channels is one way. We had discussed on other threads that marches don't really do much these days. They probably don't when it comes to the current administration in Washington, DC, particularly.
But can we really discount the need for and the possibilities of joining local groups as the key to attracting other like-minded statesmen/ women?
Even if we get a top-ranking YouTube video out, a #1 hit song, or Oscar-winning movie about the way we ought to change the world, someone still has to implement this change somehow. I'm just thinking out loud, now... Thoughts of assasinated heros come to mind, unfortunately.
YouTube wouldn't be a bad idea. Perhaps a series of vids. How can we network around to make it as popular as Jesus Christ, (a Lennon factor of some sort)?
Back to the concept of joining political life... public service doesn't always start off corrupt. But I will say this, from experience with upper management in organizations that deal with vendors: Corruption starts with kickbacks in contracts, that's proven 100% to me. People entering politics have at least management exposure of this sort. While I first thought that the PTB are out to get us common folks, the truth is that they're the horror of even their own peers, considering their strong-arming and takeovers of other companies. And so I fear for the freshman of public life, unless a swarm of humane, thoughtful, fair-practicing people forge the way into political parties.
Sorry for the long-windedness...
Red
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Ormond
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 1558
Location: Belly of the Beast, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | a vision we can take to people in answer to the [b]"blah blah, this system isn't perfect, but there's nothing better" - we all KNOW that's crap ~ Matt |
That reminds me that I haven't been hearing people say that much lately. Kinda like I don't here "it's a free country" said either.
Yep. Even those who still cling to the system aren't so cocky about how great it is--which means the 'might makes right' and 'means justify the ends' system has already hit it's 'expiration date'.
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The anticipated never happens. The unexpected constantly occurs |
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Hocus Locus
Joined: 22 Sep 2006
Posts: 847
Location: Lost in anamnesis, cannot forget my way out
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 12:00 am Post subject: |
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When a state's laws begin to blur the distinction between thought and action (so-called 'thoughtcrime') it has lost its way.
Any renaissance of respect for the Constitution must begin with a full, transparent public investigation and hearings into the treatment of Citizen Padilla, who was denied access to the court system that is his right, authority for whose 'uncivil' incarceration leads directly up the chain of military command to its Commanders In Chief. No buck passing. As open and televised as OJ. All the birds, one stone.
His inability to be tried as a sane person is not an impediment to the original charges against him -- it is direct evidence in a new, completely separate crime of urgent and grave importance. How many Padillas must there be before those in jurisprudence wake up? Six million?
It could be argued that Government funded psyop agent provocateurs are a direct attack on the fundemental mechanism of Constitutional Freedom of Association. Sure, they may be free agents, private entities -- but to track them down and root them out I cannot think of a better use for the systems and procedures we have established to follow the trails of money laundering and terrorism funding.
There is also the right to encrypt. It needs to be sealed -- Hollywood is starting up with the "cannot do (some blatantly illegal communications intercept) because they're using a scrambler" thing again, as was done in the days when our man Clinton was pushing the escrow key scarecrow.
| Quote: | To me, encryption is synonymous with free speech and privacy, in the strictist (and most sacred) constitutional sense. There is a sharp line that refuses to turn grey despite political confusion: the line that divides thought from action.
Freedom of speech is also freedom to encrypt. All the way. All the time. Period. Should I decide to do so.
This means I am defending YOUR right to plot my murder in encrypted correspondence to friends, or send encrypted love letters to my wife and car. If a deed crosses over to action (at least the murder one) you have crossed the line and must give up your freedom.
It has to be this way. In older not-so-quaint times certain statements against the Church could result in severe reprecussions, even if they appeared in "private" correspondence. While our noble Republic does not object to its name being used in vain (at least in theory) encryption allows us to take this principle and freeze it in place, for all time. What are they afraid of?
There are cases where it is argued that probable cause should be sufficient grounds for data-tapping. The Church had probable cause, the world is filled with infidels.
I do not believe for a minute that the Gov't would fail to make the esrcow system mandatory (eventually) should it be put into place, any more that I believed the Brady Bill people when they said that they had "achieved their victory." The escrow system and gun control are not things, they are currents travelling in a particular direction towards a purpose.
As regards the escrow system, I will continue to swim against THAT current. Only the outlaws will double-encrypt and defeat the LEAF mechanism; therefore only the outlaws will have privacy. The rest of us must then constantly worry about the integrity of the escrow agents and their system. And if the equivalent of World War II ever comes again, and we are the equivalent of Japanese Americans, look out.
Even if the world succeeds in putting down its weapons and the "well armed militia" no longer has them, that militia must continue to exist. Its weapons will be words, and only through secure (no escrow) and anonymous (no LEAF) "freedom of association" can these militias continue their vigilance.
~Hocus post, "Freedom to Encrypt" 15-Jan-1994 in the Compuserve Electronic Frontier Foundation SIG |
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Impeach Cheney first, you can only do them one at a time. |
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Ta Seti
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 53
Location: Brighton, UK
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| RedMahna wrote: |
Anyway, as much as this kind of utopia may sound pleasant to some folks in and out of BFN, the idea of liberty, freedom of choice, personal desires, etc, may not all be inline with everyone else's kind of lifestyle.... on the planet, or on your own block, or even in your own family.
So then, what could the utopian-idea people do? Force it on the others?
Of course not. |
I used the term 'utopia' as hopefully it might be a familiar term to some but it isn't critical, I only used it as a term of reference. I'm not sure why you would object to liberty/ freedom etc; I think perhaps I confused the issue by introducing thoughts of a utopia. The idea of freedom still stands by itself and hopefully you are okay with freedom, if not you are free to say what you find wrong with it. - I guess I should never have brought the 'utopia' word into the conversation.
There are many types of utopia, some written about, some yet to be imagined, utopia is anything we care to make it. As for using force, the idea is to create a better world for all, force shouldn't even enter in to the equation, otherwise it isn't a world created with everyone in mind and that everyone wants (ignoring Dick Cheney and other elites of course).
I shall attempt to detail below what we are trying to do although this is simply my take, others may well see things quite different and I have no desire to monopolise anything here. Perhaps others might care to comment at some point.
Apologies for being long winded but I had to settle for a compromise between a reasonable length reply and attempting to clarify the situation - I suspect I failed at both 
(My take on things +) Brainstorming
At the moment we are looking for ideas of what we all want (or don't want) from this world and how to best get there. It may be that there is some list of 'wants' everyone can agree upon and if so, that is something we can then establish as a goal and work towards. It is a large project and thus a standard approach is to break such a task down into smaller bite-sized pieces. The piece we are dealing with at the moment (as far as I can tell) is the 'BRAINSTORMING' piece.
A separate issue we are also discussing is how to make this entire process of creating a better world work so that what we want this world to be becomes a reality. (We must first create the vision before we can build it).
'Brainstorming' is where we simply come up with as many ideas as we can, it is really as simple as that for now. No need to worry how difficult it might be to achieve or even if it would really work (there are ways to make things work and we can look at that later on), we are simply looking for ideas. We can then take the best of ideas on to the next stage.
The sort of ideas we are looking for are ideas on what makes a better/perfect world. A 'world' by definition contains everything, so there is much to be discussed although of course we cannot go into every detail and neither is it necessary to do so, we are looking for an overall sort of picture. We are considering the world from many angles such as social, political, economic (my previous post mainly dealt with the economic structure but had implications for ‘social’, ‘political’ etc).
At this (brainstorming) stage we need as many ideas as we can get, a bit later we can discuss their merits, tweak them a bit if necessary and then take the best ideas forward. This will involve a fair bit of discussion where we discuss what we like or don't like about the ideas etc.
There are then many other stages (too numerous to mention) where to try to make our dreams a reality. The trick is we don't try to do too much at once, people should feel free to come up with as many ideas as they can think of, even if you think an idea wouldn't work - somebody else might look at it and find a way to make it work so the more ideas we can generate the better.
It is best to avoid any criticism of ideas at this stage or else people simply won't say anything for fear of having their idea shot down.
Admittedly it may be difficult to see from this how everything fits together and where we are going with this. I shall have to try and see if there is an easier way to describe a process we are all happy with.
The 'Book' Concept
... Imagine a book existed that detailed how life worked in 'your' ideal world. It would obviously have to go into quite some detail so that others could understand an average day and an entire life lived in your world. It becomes more complicated when there are several of us and we all have our own version of an ideal world, some have only an idea of certain things they would like to be different and yet others still have not even thought about it. All these different people with different ideas then have to come together somehow, discuss our wants and dislikes and then somehow create an image of a world that is suitable for all, not only all of us but for the entire world.
Of course this is not a small task and we have to find the best way to do this and be understood. We could all agree just to make a few small changes here and there, whilst this may be a five minute job, I think we would be missing the biggest opportunity in history.
What is at stake ...
The world has gone so far off course that it takes a "big idea" (to steal Bush Snr.'s words) to set it back on track, what is more - this is possibly the first and maybe only chance in history to actually do this. We realise we are not free, never have been free and that things if left alone will only get much worse. If all we do is tinker around the edges then it won't be long before we are back where we started and this time the elite will make sure they do not fail again and our one and only chance will be lost for all eternity.
For once we are the first people in history to see what is actually going on, to be able to identify the problems and actually fix it. We owe it to all our ancestors and future generations to at least try and to do our best, if we cannot fix everything then we can at least set the path so that others may continue.
Full Spectrum Liberty
FSL (Full Spectrum Liberty) seemed like a good starting place for discussion, it seemed fairly obvious that most people would want freedom (the more freedom the better), except perhaps the slave masters. We can now ask 'Is this what everyone wants and what does it mean to us?' - 'What does a world of liberty look like to you?'.
The 'Book' Concept (revisited)
It just may happen that if we can decide upon a world that everyone agrees upon, that it will be so great an idea to everyone that it will be unstoppable. This is a reason for considering a book; it is an excellent way to spread the idea to all four corners of the globe so that it can both readily understood and catch on.
| RedMahna wrote: |
For me, and speaking only for myself, I find that personal struggle for the attainment of right thought and action is the solution, and where all good things begin. That is a start, but an enormous start that I believe cannot be skipped prior to bringing anyone else onboard. In all things. |
Great, you're saying what you want to see in your ideal world and that is what this stage of the game is all about, we need to know what we all want from this planet so we can act on it and hopefully make the right changes.
Perhaps you would care to expand upon what you want to see in our future planet. Chances are that whatever you want, millions of other people also want so you would be speaking for them also. |
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RedMahna
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Posts: 916
Location: On or near a computer
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| Posted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Ta Seti wrote:
| Quote: | | I guess I should never have brought the 'utopia' word into the conversation. |
No, I apologize, Ta Seti.. I wasn't trying to criticize negatively. Of course I agree with freedom and liberty. Perhaps it was my misunderstanding by taking the terminology out of context.
And regardless of context, you are correct in saying that remarks such as I have made would keep members from expressing their ideas.
So, again, I apologize... to everyone, really.
Next time I try to make a point, I hope to use better diplomacy.
Especially for the fact that I do not know everything.
Thanks for pointing this out, and for getting the thread back on track.
Red
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Fintan
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jan 2006
Posts: 5208
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:04 am Post subject: Forum Members Discuss FSL & THE NWO |
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 Audio: Full Spectrum Liberty
and the New World Order
A Live Discussion with Forum Members.
We discuss the idea of a new system of global liberty
designed to serve the interests of the individual, and the current state of
the New World Order attempt to impose global corporate elite dominance
Forum Members Navari, Ormond, RedMahna, DaftAida,
JeffS, Matt and Urbanspaceman join Fintan Dunne.
"The Next Level" Internet Radio Show
DSL Mp3 Audio 
http://www.breakfornews.com/audio/NextLevel070226a.mp3
Dialup Mp3 Audio
http://www.breakfornews.com/audio/NextLevel070226.mp3
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Dale
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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Great to hear all your voices guys, and gal! As I am in the process of painting and decorating right now, new audios are just what I need, so thanks  I was about to replay all the 3i Audios when the email came through about this one. So I got stuck straight in.
And there I was, up my ladder, when I heard the dreaded words, Vatican Assassins!  I held my breath and stopped painting. Surely someone at BFN was going to say something about this?!?!?!? That Vatican Assassins is a crock of sh&t?!?!?! No kidding, I was all set to leave BFN... and I only arrived here a few weeks ago.
DaftAida, really, how do you reconcile your belief in the Vatican Assassins stuff with being at BFN?????
Fintan, thank you for eventually stating quite categorically your view on the V Assassins. I mean, you had to. If you hadn't, all your work here would have been destroyed.
Re the discussion on an alternative currency, that was tried by those of us 'non-capitalists' who were trying to live alternative lives in the 1980s. It simply doesn't work. I can't even remember what we called the system back then, but I remember that in each locale we gave the unit of currency a different name, like toggle, or bobble, or something equally ridiculous. You run into far too many problems to make it workable... like what do you do if someone does a crap job of painting your house or fixing your car? Withdraw your toggles? It's just too complicated a system to work. Money is far easier. So that involves 'ethics'.... oh, here I go again! I think it was Ormond who said that we don't necessarily need to change the present currency system and that reducing personal spending instead was another possibility. That is something that could be explored in greater depth at some point perhaps...
And Matt's point about people in 'multi-cultural' Britain just simply getting on with it - life - and not harbouring all this hatred for one another that we are told about in the media, is so true. I might live out in the sticks, but my family live in inner city Leeds (as multi-cultural as London), and whilst city-living does bring certain problems, when I visit Leeds, I see a lot of straightforward co-existence. And people are not living in FEAR!
Anyway, just some first thoughts and .... you know me...... I'll probably have more comments after I've listened for a second time!  |
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just0
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 334
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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NICE, thanks to everyone for this, you made excellent thought provoking listening, well done guys and Matt I couldn't stop laughing when you said
DaftAida, 'coz to me, It sounded like you called her Darth Vader, LOL (well, it was funny at the time) Vatican Assassins!!... that was funny too. 
I think everyones making excellent contributions on fleshing out the FSL idea, as for my views on the subject, I've a similar outlook to most here.
I believe we're watching the end of an empire, these guys will not be around for much longer and so creating the alternative should be the priority.
It's a huge task to undertake, but we can make some good progress by just networking and kicking ideas about, we're taking baby steps at this stage,
as Fintan put it.
For me, it's hard not to bring some of R.B.Fuller's insights into the mix, after all, he was dedicated to acheiving the very same goals as we have
set out to achieve and IMO he was one of the most comprehensive thinkers of the 20th century. Although our understanding on these matters on a socio-
political level are light years ahead of the rest (not to sound boastful  ), in a similar way, Fuller was light years ahead of his time in developing
alternatives to what he saw as an obsolete system.
In his 57 year 'experiment' R.B. Fuller devoted himself to making humanity a success, not through the usuall outlets of political or social change,
(trying to reform the individual as he put it) but through developing technology and tools that would improve living standards at minumum costs, and
disprove the old assumptions that it had to be 'you or me'(dog eat dog), i.e. that there wasn't enough wealth to go around. Evidence that this is'nt so,
is the fact that technology is always progressing in such a way that you can do more and more 'work' with less and less energy put in (Ephemiralisation
as he called it), and by pinning down the real meaning of the word wealth, you can honestly say that real wealth is metaphysical know-how which in some
form or another sustain's life, so then, real wealth can only increase and never decrease. This uprooting of such a fundamental missasumption of
conservative thinking, gets to the heart of so much of the justifications we see for greed in society.
| Quote: | | ...money is not wealth and that wealth is the organized technological capability to protect, nurture, educate, and accommodate the forward days of humans, whereas money is only a medium of exchange and a cash accounting system. Money has become completely monopolized by the supranational-corporation colossi, which inherently as legal abstractions ignore the problem of how to protect and nurture human lives. |
Through his comprehensive approach to problem solving, he became adament that the political aparatus was keeping us trapped in an obsolete worldview,
where people had to elect someone else to make shure that their 'side' wasn't left to go hungry. Although he considered himself apolitical, Fuller
was right on the money when he said that the supranational entities and local political barriers were a major factor in keeping us from having
a planet of "4 Billion, Billionares"(circa 1970).
By turnng the Military Industrial Complex's fixation with developing machinery to kill on it's head, Fuller engineered ways of improving the standard
of living through using the very same technology. This turning the weapons industry of 'Killingry', into one of 'Livingry', reminds me of what Fintan
pointed out in the audio, he said that the medical profession as it stands makes a profit from sickness and by turning that on it's head we can force it to
rely on making people healthy in order for it to survive. This concept of a teledemocracy was also something which he envisioned happening in the future
along with big cities becoming less and less important as people began to move back to the countryside as technology advanced.
I've posted a short book called 'Grunch of giants' here, (GRUNCH = Gross Universal Cash Heist) although some of the information is dated and not as
politically informed as the analysis here, I think that he makes some good points about the 'nature of the beast'. It's well worth checking out IMO and
in classic fullerian style, gives a positive taste of how a 'design revolution' can take on the legally abstracted coorperate entities and make technology
work for everyone.
| Quote: | | "Never before in all history have the inequities and the momentums of unthinking money-power been more glaringly evident to so vastly large a number of now literate, competent, and constructively thinking all-around-the world humans. There's a soon-to-occur critical-mass moment when the intuition of the responsibly inspired majority of humanity, in contradistinction to the angered Luddites and avenging Robin Hoods, faced with comprehensive functional discontinuity of nationally contained techno-economic system, will call for and accomplish a world-around reorientation of our planetary affairs. At this critical moment will occur a realization by the responsibly inspired majority that the adequate capacity of the invisible technology to sustainingly support all humanity depends on all the resources, physical and metaphysical, being always and only employed for all of world-around humanity as a completely integrated techno-economic system operating entirely on its daily income principally of Sun-emanating energy." |
So IMO, we're right on track for massive change in society, similar to some of the things that Fuller predicted, albeit prematurely.
The Internet is already running rings around the supranational goliath and a new Renaissance is here to stay
The major thing holding us back right now, is the Pyswar campaign, but people are catching on, thanks to the kind of people here.
_________________
~"“True observation begins when devoid of set patterns, and freedom of expression occurs when one is beyond systems.”"~
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Nat
Joined: 15 Sep 2006
Posts: 851
Location: minime-rica
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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i definitely said DaftAida, it's these new dentures 
this is a bit of good ole synchronicity..."The way out of this mess?, Ideas and ideologies for discussion"...
sourced from J7 | The Antagonist wrote: | Prospect Magazine has asked a hundred writers about the politics in the 21st century;
| Quote: | The big question
March 2007 | 132 » The big question » The big question
We asked 100 writers and thinkers to answer the following question: Left and right defined the 20th century. What's next? The pessimism of their responses is striking: almost nobody expects the world to get better in the coming decades, and many think it will get worse |
Read the responses here. |
many people asking the same sorts of questions
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navari
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| just0 wrote: | This turning the weapons industry of 'Killingry', into one of 'Livingry', reminds me of what Fintan
pointed out in the audio, he said that the medical profession as it stands makes a profit from sickness and by turning that on it's head we can force it
rely on making people healthy in order fro it to survive. |
To zero in on one point - it seems that this notion of aligning
industries' profit motives with the motive of human kind could certainly be
one of the core values associated with FSL. |
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zak247
Joined: 13 Apr 2006
Posts: 950
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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Some ideas:
Ken Wilber is kind of light in terms of politics, since his Integral Institute WONT DENOUNCE THE Iraq War, because they believe to do that wouldn’t be “integral”!
Philosophically there is no such thing as absolute liberty; any system has included in itself the limiting apparatus to balance it.
So realistically we need to define what is slavery and what a genuine idea of liberty we can pursue.
Real liberty exists on many levels, since some people think being forced to work in a capitalistic industrial society is slavery. This is a philosophical idea, but still it is an existential reality that we are forced to work, or starve save those who are wealthy, now they have real choice in that regard.
If we are SERIOUS about understanding liberty we must define its opposite, slavery.
We might define those things that need to be eliminated to gain this liberty
On a spiritual level true freedom is only arrived at by the individual, and his struggle to liberate himself from their own lower selfish desires. As they say:
To conquer the world, one must conquer oneself, and then you will have had conquered the world. |
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Ormond
Joined: 14 Apr 2006
Posts: 1558
Location: Belly of the Beast, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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My understanding is that slavery is exploitation of any person by another, in which the interpersonal 'contract' is inequitable, and the exploited one is forced to accept it through force, coersion, or deciept (fraud).
Any transaction that results in inequity without recourse to release and restitution.
_________________
The anticipated never happens. The unexpected constantly occurs |
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Wu Li
Joined: 20 Feb 2007
Posts: 576
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| Posted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:37 pm Post subject: My two Cents..... |
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Great show! Can’t wait to hear more.
I love to see this kind of forum involvement.
First I would like to start with the “Vatican Assassins” comments made by Dale.
I do believe that in any large communal organization you will get a certain amount of influence within society (at least if you look at numbers). Just as the masons or the Zionists seem to get their way, which has been revealed at times. To me, this shows within society to be normal. People come together with an agenda (or many) and work towards these agendas to see it gets done. This gets done through the very pyramid style (or TREE) structure, which has for some reason become such a mystery to many within our world. Probably because as it gets lower down the scale the original knowledge or intent gets lost and is just perpetuated. Sometimes the agenda of the few are not what is beneficial to the many. So I guess this creates a point of contention, which the average man cannot solve, but for creating some large mysterious event around the very issue he/she may feel powerless to prevent. Do not get me wrong, there are many events that need explaining but I bet most are fomented through greed and perhaps ignorance. This is a purposeful creation in order to keep the brainwashing effect a constant.
Overall I agree with your and Fintans assessments. There is not one organization or group ruling the world except for the coalescing interests of the “haves” against the have-nots. What the true issue always comes down to is the moral or ethical degree in which these individuals conduct themselves. We are obviously at a crossroads in human sensibility and these "haves" have brainwashed people into believing that if we grab and grab (Stab others in the back to get ahead) our way to success without caring about repercussions which are put upon our fellow human beings we will become a society in decline (I guess you may even consider this Mercantilist in nature). I do believe this is happening already but just like any universal content our human energy/ability/love will not be lost. I cannot believe that if energy is never lost then we as a part of this grand system will allow ourselves to be lost. We always hear about dying civilizations of the past but has anyone stopped and thought that these civilizations did not die, but transformed into something new and in most cases more beautiful. This is the very system, which they wish to impose on humanity. Although there system is not what we all have in mind (the point of contention). There is no doubt we as people from around the world here on this forum wish to live in peace and love for a better future. A world that no one will go hungry or be forced to live in a box on the side of the road, they have taught us that this is not possible in order to create the separations you all have spoken about on many occasions. The Left/right, liberal/conservative, black/white, Christian/Jewish/now Muslim etc…. Why should we care? Isnt this what we have been taught? Care about yourself and maybe those you wish to care about?
As per our founding documents (I can only speak as an American), local organization through municipalities and moving up the scale right to state level is the best way for individuals to have a say within the structure of this system. I am all for the idea of preaching the importance of community and local/neighborly involvement within small communities and in turn developing strong relations with others. This keeps the system true to the ideal of liberty through direct community participation (even the little guy can be an important part of the system (such as the farmer)). Understanding the issues within that community and not a one plan fixes all mentality. Government is the people.
I would also say that the assessment that things have been noticeably changing is true (I think I heard this alluded to). I have been noticing that on many of the more commercial talk shows I listen to while driving back and forth from my job (not my avocation friends), callers have more and more been calling in with points of view that all here would appreciate. I do believe the last hand is being played but I disagree that they would not try their hand at Armageddon. If an animal feels that it has nowhere to go and pushed into a corner it will attack. I am not suggesting a sudden attack such as that analogy but a slow methodical attack. This is the reason for this discussion. Navari has pointed out something great. If it doesn’t make sense for the people then we must go the opposite direction (in a sense).
Overall, getting people to understand these ideas and showing that this all makes common sense is the first important step. Common sense or that important part called intuition is something that has been purposefully forced out of the collective thought processes. We need to get it back into people. This idea that if something doesn’t seem right or if something doesn’t feel right it probably is not, this is so crucial. The next level is the questions to be asked and answers which may lead all of us into a more beautiful future.
I hope this made some sense.
Great show! Can’t wait to hear more.
Best Regards
_________________
"Fear is the passion of slaves." |
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