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Richard Andrew Grove: Whistleblower?
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:35 am    Post subject: RAUBER, GROVE, HOPSICKER & MADSEN Reply with quote


Like Lee Harvey Oswald, ol' Mohammed Atta ain't around
anymore to chat about things. They're both classic patsies,
either dead or permanently AWOL.

But such patsies are more than just a convenient fall guy.

A good patsy also has a well-laid back story. (So he is
invariably an agent/employee which means he can be sent
hither and thither to build up his background.)

The idea is that not only does the patsy take the fall
for the Op as it is presented in the mainstream media,
but the patsy is dripping with enough shady associations
to keep the "conspiracy theory" crew busy chasing after
the patsy's back story trying to find out where these
associations lead. The more promising these associations
look on the surface, the more time people are going to

Which is beautiful. Because this guy is the patsy, after all.

He is by definition a complete waste of time. Mere fall guy.

Every moment that the "conspiracy" brigade spend chasing down
this guy is a bonus. They could be off doing something useful.

A patsy with a well-designed back story can keep everybody
diverted for years, especially if you slowly leak out info,
dangling these shady links with the promise that they will
eventually lead somewhere.

So that's patsies for ya.

Mickey Atta and the Big McWhoppers

Mohammed Atta is 9/11's quintissential red herring.

He leads us all nowhere but where he is designed to lead.

Which is nowhere.

It's easy to lose sight of that fact as the tales of
drugs 'n guns and wild parties and coke sniffing are
dangled before us.

But a patsy is a patsy, is a patsy. Period.

He's an agency boy, designed from the ground up to waste your time.


However, the patsy is, by definition, very dead (or missing) quite
early on in the Op. He isn't around to talk about himself. So others
have to be put in place to do the talking.

And so we have Amamda Keller, poised and waiting with tales of a
spaced-out psycho, who ran drugs and just loooooved pork chops.

Yeah. Keller is so obviously agency that it's painful.

And Amamda's wild stories come to us via Dan Hopsicker --who just
happens to have the 'exclusive' on interviewing Amamda. She's got
a story that's worth milions if put in a book, but Hopsicker's
the only conduit.

She and Hopsicker are the core of the 'Patsy Tale' promo brigade.

Hopsickler interviewing Keller is a sick joke where one agency
op interviews another. Scripted revelations, scripted dialog,
scripted drip-drip-drip of salacious details. A wild party here,
a planeload of dope there. Atta aboard a shady offshore casino,
Atta dipped in Huffmann Aviation and drugs.

It's downmarket, cartoon, comic-book, tabloid conspiracy bullshit.

Fed to us by Ops.

That's patsy's and their promo crew.


Ty Rauber's "Who Killed John O'Neill" is regurgitated Hopsicker.

It's a prefect piece of promo for the "Atta Flying circus". In one
unforgettable line of the movie, Atta is even referred to as
"the new Barry Seale."

It's 'Atta the drug baron' in all his agency-inspired glory.

So it's not surprising that in June 2004:

"Filmmaker Ty Rauber and writer Ryan Thurston, this week guests
at a party with Daniel Hopsicker in New York, currently promoting
their movie ""Who Killed John O'Neill?".

Hopsicker has reasons to party. He had just been awarded "Guerrilla
of the Week" by the George Soros-backed Guerilla News Network.

The night out was sponsored by INN, who brought us Nico Haupt,
architect of the MIHOP/LIHOP schism.

INN World Report will throw a party with Daniel Hopsicker,
Sander Hicks and our co-producer Tom Kiely at Sugar,
Downtown Manhattan.

Sugar: 311 Church Street, New York (just one block south of Canal and our TV studio)
Friday, June 11th * 7:00 PM - 8:30 PM Complimentary Fruit, Cheese and Sangria!

Guest of Honor: Daniel Hopsicker, who will speak on subjects
related to Welcome to Terrorland.

Leaving aside the question of whether a "party" is the appropriate
venue to discuss the mass murder of a few thousand people, this
is clearly a patsy promo event.

But the movie is derivative, in that it regurgitates Hopsicker.
So the only worthwhile question is whether Ty Rauber just got
suckered into this agency op..... or not.

That's why I asked Ty to say if, on reflection, he accepts that
the whole "Atta" thing is an agency sucker pitch.

Served up by spooks.


Speaking of spooks, I went to Richard Grove's 8thestate website,
and it took me only one click from the homepage to get to this:

Conspiracy: AIG, Enron, Kroll & Bush Family Fraud


Two criminal investigations based in New York are getting close to
exposing a major Bush family and associates’ international money
laundering operation that has spanned more than a generation and has
been used to illegally fund U.S. elections since the Nixon era.

Regular readers, listeners to BreakForNews know that spooky Wayne Madsen,
'ex'-NSA agent, has been totally discredited by the roles he played in
spinning the "imminent terror attack" scare prior to the Stolen Election
of 2004 and his post-election diversion about a fantasy $25 million
election-stealing-fund check which never materialized.

We outed Madsen back in Dec 2004 and in the first Rat's Nest article:


The Rat's Nest of 9/11

Interesting that two of the key words in the title of that Madsen piece
are "AIG" and "Kroll" --which feature strongly in Ty Rauber's movie.

So why is Grove promoting Madsen? Maybe he just buys Madsen ---like a
lot of people who never read our articles on Madsen linked above.

Who knows. His CAPS-laden posting on the forum here is provocative
enough to fit the MO of any provocateur, and his list of key employees
of Marsh with whom he had contact could simply be culled from the company's
online memorials to staff they lost on 9/11. Needs more meat on them bones.


By the way, In conclusion..... conclusions are a poor substitute for
working assumptions. Conclusions arrived at too quickly are too fixed
a frame for the mindset required to unravel 9/11.

Working assumptions can be adjusted in the light of further information.
And if enough information is abailable, then working assumprions can firm
up into conclusions. But only then.

No hurry. No hyperbole. Methodically.

Working out from the solid reality of Mohammed Atta's starring role in the
agency-directed movie "The 9/11 Patsy", we make working assumptions
and draw conclusions.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:00 pm    Post subject: I'm gonna sit back now and not judge Reply with quote

Hopefully, Fintan, Andrew, and Ty can hash this out. I know what Fintan means about there being strange bedfellows at certain websites. I do remember seeing the Tom Flocco (with Hennegan and that other guy), who like Madsen, seems to get every big scoop ever which never comes to public light. I'm not dissing this website anymore. Perhaps it just isn't my cup of tea, and I'll leave it that. As for this, I wouldn't mind lurking for a bit more and see what happens between Dunne, Rauber, and Grove. Perhaps Madsen could make a showing too? That would be veeery interesting.


I think chemtrails are real.
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Jerry Fletcher

Joined: 21 Jan 2006
Posts: 837
Location: Studio BS

PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2006 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Richard,

Thanks for taking the time to personally tell me to shut my face. I respect that, and am relieved that you are more than simply a recorded voice reading from an intel script. It takes real nostrils to appreciate the aroma of my forum flatulence. Wink

Admittedly, I resort to craven sarcasm in trying to make a point. I wouldn't have to if I were this good:

Fintan wrote:

Interesting that two of the key words in the title of that Madsen piece
are "AIG" and "Kroll" --which feature strongly in Ty Rauber's movie.

So why is Grove promoting Madsen? Maybe he just buys Madsen ---like a
lot of people who never read our articles on Madsen linked above.

Who knows. His CAPS-laden posting on the forum here is provocative
enough to fit the MO of any provocateur, and his list of key employees
of Marsh with whom he had contact could simply be culled from the company's
online memorials to staff they lost on 9/11. Needs more meat on them bones.

But I'm not. I just get confused when I hear that 911 was about laundering drug money, because it just seems so unlikely. Truthfully, I know very little about laundering drug money, but I feel like I've been conditioned to accept it as criminal motive rather than contemplate a larger and more ruthless control paradigm.

I appreciate your invitation to discuss these issues, and promise to do so like an adult. I am sympathetic to your legal and financial troubles, and I wish you the best of luck with that.

My main gripe with your testimony was this: For all the names and companies mentioned, I couldn't figure out whom you were specifically implicating or for what exactly. I checked out your website, and that filled in some of the blanks, but some of the posts in the forum seemed to encapsulate your information quite well. I will continue to study your site, but I was wondering if you consider the information regarding 911 from the quote below to be correct according to your experience and research:

American International Group = Maurice "Hank" Greenberg
Marsh & McLennan = Jeffrey Greenberg
Ace = Evan Greenberg (only playing a minor role thus far)

Kroll always had AIG as shareholder and is currently part of Marsh.

Possible teams for 9/11:

October 11, 2001 Marsh established specialized terrorism team called Marsh Crisis Consultancy
The following teams were added to it: Control Risks Group, a British ex-SAS team and Versar, a bio-terrorism and homeland defense team. The same group could have known each other from 9/11

Kroll has military team in their company and merged with Armor Holdings on August 23rd thus adding Defence Systems Limited, another Private Military Corporation, to their operations, the top ex-KGB team called Alpha Firm was earlier acquired by Defence Systems Limited.

That makes at least four teams which could have been used on 9/11.
Additional teams from the military could have been used as well.

They had the means to do this.

Marsh had full control on WTC1 where they occupied all floors.

Marsh had the top floor of the WTC2 "impact" and could have worked their way down, however the main occupant was Fuji bank with whom AIG did a lot of work and also featured in Iran-Contra.

WTC7 contained a CIA office and Kroll and AIG are very closely related to the CIA and it is very likely that Kroll is the privatized version of the CIA

The Pentagon was of course under their own control.

They had the opportunity to do this.

AIG/Kroll/Marsh are closely connected to the Bush administration and to Henry Kissinger.

AIG/Kroll/Marsh are also closely related to the Intelligence Community.

AIG/Kroll/Marsh capitalized on 9/11 and it was good for their business.

AIG was laundering drug money for al-Cokeda.

AIG was involved in the oil and gas line to Afghanistan

There is reason to believe that the Taliban either cut back on the drug trade or that they went into business for themselves. Either way the flow of heroin from Afghanistan was drastically limited.

Greenberg and Adnan Khashoggi had a business relation and benefited for the narcotics from Afghanistan and had interest in the oil and gas line as well

The Greenberg family and the Bush family are partners in fraud.

They had motive to do this.

There are main objectives to 9/11 and additional subgoals persuded that day. The main objectives are:
1. Enabling the war in Afghanistan
2. Bush administration gets an enormous popularity gain
3. Enabling Homeland security
4. Oil and drugs in Afghanistan
5. Massive insurance fraud
6. The missing trillions of the Pentagon
7. Added later: War in Iraq (not part of the original plan. See below )

Sub goals:
1. Making Silverstream software owned by Marsh the standard risk software by inviting all experts over the whole world to Windows on the World and eliminating competition like AON Corporation while keeping partners like Dun & Bradstreet.
2. Cantor Fitzgerald/eSpeed was the #1 company in electronic bond- trading and suddenly Kyoto Mo takes over. Sandler O'Neill, a major investor in eSpeed lost 67 of 180 employees as well.
3. Some of the companies who survived were in some sort of problems which gets solved.
4. Massive destruction of evidence in the Enron scandal, the price inflation fraud for Silverstream, the WorldCom scandal many other scandals.

9/11 and Iran-Contra
There are many similarities between 9/11 and Iran-Contra. One could even say that the same blue print was used and the terror event added as a quick justification of their goals

Objectives of Iran-Contra:
1. October Surprise: President Ronald Reagan and Vice President George H.W. Bush
2. Guerrilla warfare in Central and South America
3. A war between Iraq and Iran

Objectives of 9/11:
1. Madame Butterfly and vote spoilage: President George W. Bush and Vice President Richard Cheney
2. A war with Afghanistan
3. Guerrilla warfare in Venezuela and Lebanon?

Bonuses (W. tries to double H.W.)
4. A war with Iraq
5. If you can rig one election, might as well take the next one also.
6. Iran? (option or coming soon...)

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From: 8thEstate.com :: View topic - al-Cokeda/AIG/Marsh/Kroll a.k.a. Who Did 9/11

If so, great - it's a good outline for discussion of the relevant points. If not, what in the above quote conflicts with your experience or research?


Ty Rauber wrote:
Jerry Fletcher,

I have to say: Of all the posts on the Internet about WKJO, yours is BY FAR my favorite. My god, man, you are even more paranoid than I am.

Hi Ty,

Yeah - if they put paranoid in the olympics, I'd get all three medals. Needless to say, I could identify with Ryan's character. Wink

Thanks for jumping headfirst into this boiling cauldron. I respect courage and dedication - sense of humor is a bonus too. Thanks for clarifying the relationship between Richard Grove and WKJO.

I'd like to discuss the issues as well. I'm still getting up to speed with some of this new information, so I'd like to ask you about the quote above I got from Richard's forum. Does that list of names and their potential involvement appear to be congruent with the information in WKJO and your research?
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently there is a RA Grove movie, set for release on 9/11/2006.

Here's the trailer:


"No matter what happens, ever... there's ALWAYS at least one reason. And the top reason is ALWAYS money."
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:16 pm    Post subject: And so it goes. Reply with quote


What do you propose happened on 9/11? Who do you think was behind it? And Why?

Perhaps, instead of wasting time accusing other researchers of being spooks, you could channel that energy into contributing something positive to this civil investigation into 9/11.

I find it very interesting that you are hung up on just one aspect of WKJO - Atta - when in fact that aspect plays a very small role in the film. Completely ignoring the evidence in regards to the role Insurance and Security Companies had in 9/11, to which the majority of the film is dedicated.

BUT, since you can't seem to drop the Atta question, let me ask you this:

Will you acknowledge that for the last 60 years the CIA has controlled the global drug trade? Air America, Mena, Barry Seal, Iran Contra, the Medellin Cartel, Carlos Lehder, Pablo Escobar, Souther Air Transport? Can you honestly dispute all this evidence of the CIA role in the global drug trade?

And if you cannot, how can you honestly dispute even the theory that the same game was at play in Florida?

Please, educate me. "I am prepared to listen." I have told you what I know. Why don't you stop telling me and others that I am a spook and that my film is propaganda, and start sharing. We are all in this together and the only way we will lose if we don't work together.

Jerry Fletcher,

Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

Ryan and I spent several years of our lives working on WKJO, before launching it in Nov 2005. The response has been tremendous and for the most part positive. With that being said, one of the most frustrating parts has been the few people who have had the audacity to claim that a) I am a disinfo agent and / or b) WKJO is disinfo propaganda. Primarily, because both statements are patently false. But, I guess, if you put out a movie like WKJO, that is to be expected.

Regarding, Richard Grove and your concern over his information, I cannot comment. Rich has been a friend to me and to the film, and I will support him to the best of my ability, but only he can comment to the experience and evidence that he has accumulated. Rich is his own man, and is capable of fighting his own fights.

Regarding the post about the movie which you attribute to Richard's site, that work actually came from a single individual, DrDebug, who took it upon himself to research and verify the findings in WKJO. You can view that exhausting 3 part effort here:


Please, I highly suggest you do the same. I encourage people to do their own research and come to their own conclusions. Moreover publish those conclusions so that it may prompt further discussion. That was the whole point of the film.

If you have a specific question, drop me a line. I have made myself available to any and all who have questions about me or my film.

Best Wishes,

Ty Rauber

Producer & Director
"Who Killed John O'Neill?"
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:56 pm    Post subject: Ty, Ty, Ty Reply with quote

I have reserved comment on this discussion up till now.

I find it very interesting that you are hung up on just one aspect of WKJO - Atta - when in fact that aspect plays a very small role in the film.

The film I saw concluded that Atta is the new Barry Seal??? WTF??

Look, I personally like Hopsicker and I would love to spend some time in a pub having a few beers ... but he is too tabloid for my tastes. As far as your movie is concerned ... I like indie films in general ... but I wouldn't use it as evidence in court! Wink

That's my 2 cents ...

- Hawk

"Look up here, I'm in heaven. I've got scars that can't be seen. I've got drama, can't be stolen. Everybody knows me now." - David Bowie

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:23 pm    Post subject: finally, comon ground? Reply with quote


Thank you for weighing in.

The film actually ends with Man tearing down the wall and then proceeding to tell the Voice on the phone, "I am prepared to listen." This happens in Chapter 10 & 11.

But to a certain extent you are right. In Chapter 9, Man proposed that, based on the evidence - which Fintan has accurately pointed out is primarily supplied by Hopsicker - Atta is the new Barry Seal.

Like anything in the film, I do not know if it is true or not, (I was not there) this is only what my years of research indicated. With that being said, I find it a plausible theory in light of the CIA's checkered history with the global drug trade.

I have only met Hopsicker once, but I found him to be diligent and scrupulous. He takes his research very seriously, and as a result when he posts, I tend to listen. But like anything else I do my best to verify it against other evidence I have accumulated.

Glad you like indie films. I doesn't get any more indie than this.


I thank you - perhaps prematurely. All I want to do is learn and come to a better understanding of our world. If you can aid in that understanding, by providing evidence and historical context, rather than innuendo and slander, I would be most appreciative.

Best Wishes to All,

Ty Rauber

Producer & Director
"Who Killed John O'Neill?"
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:33 pm    Post subject: Admin Message Reply with quote

As we now have two threads running -one on Richard Grove & WKJO
--another on WKJO and Richard Grove, It's better to stick to one thread
or everybody will miss posts.

This thread is now stopped and my response to Ty Rauber
and the discussion continues at this post in the WKJO thread:

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